this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2024
908 points (97.0% liked)

A Boring Dystopia

9700 readers
195 users here now

Pictures, Videos, Articles showing just how boring it is to live in a dystopic society, or with signs of a dystopic society.

Rules (Subject to Change)

--Be a Decent Human Being

--Posting news articles: include the source name and exact title from article in your post title

--Posts must have something to do with the topic

--Zero tolerance for Racism/Sexism/Ableism/etc.

--No NSFW content

--Abide by the rules of lemmy.world

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 31 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.

Sure, but couldn't the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders. Even many of those who were there willingly only did such things after being subject to years of ruthless Nazi propaganda.

At some point, regardless of what circumstances led you to that moment, you become responsible for your own actions. There is no set of circumstances that can make murdering innocent civilians justified. And if you do that anyway, you bear full moral culpability, regardless of what may have happened in your life before that point.

We literally hashed this out during the Nuremberg trials. It doesn't matter what propaganda you were subject to. It doesn't matter how you were raised. It doesn't matter if you were "just following orders." It doesn't even matter if you yourself would face execution for refusing to kill innocent civilians. It is never OK to kill innocent civilians, to perform genocide, or commit ethnic cleansing. If you do that, you deserve to hang for it. Full stop. No excuses.

[–] Jtotheb@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago

The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.

[–] sOlitude24k@lemmy.myserv.one 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It absolutely could, and should. I'm not saying that the crimes should be forgiven, but it is not a purely black and white area. It is very grey. To ignore the fact that they were ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, just because it's uncomfortable to think about, would be a disservice towards efforts to prevent things like this in the future. People are complex.

[–] 4lan@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children)

They have a choice. They could either kill innocent people or sit in a jail cell. Picking the first one makes you a sociopath.

I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail, especially since he is a trained soldier.

Stop making excuses, "complexity" doesn't justify genocide. Do you also think that our soldiers who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are just victims? Do you think the surviving family members would agree with that sentiment? That their families murderer is a victim?

It's all the same shit. They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail

glances at the state of Israeli prisons, complete with guards who have the designated job of raping prisoners

Maybe not a lot less.

They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars

Given the degree to which the NATO states consult with IDF security officials when training their own police and military, it might be them passing their brutal and fascist policies onto us.

[–] 4lan@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Would you rather be raped or slaughter children?

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

I'd rather neither. But I accomplish that by not being an Israeli Settler forced to choose.

[–] sOlitude24k@lemmy.myserv.one 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It's not a justification for genocide, it's a call for empathy. Give what I wrote another read with that in mind.

As for your questions... I think our soldiers are victims. I was there, so I think I've got at least a somewhat informed perspective on things. It's not something you can prepare for. In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time, but it will never be the majority.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

it’s a call for empathy

Empathy isn't just about feeling sad for other people. It is about relating to them emotionally. In this case, we're dealing with people who are professional physical, psychological, and sexual abusers. Empathizing them should mean recognizing these sociopathic traits and recoiling in horror.

If you're feeling pity for a chronic abuser, you're not feeling empathy. You're being exploited. The first response to dealing with a chronic abuser is to separate yourself from them. If you're opening yourself up to their manipulation, you're feeding into the abuse cycle.

In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time

How can you even begin to talk about forgiveness as this act of abuse is still playing out before our eyes?

[–] freddydunningkruger@lemmy.world -3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

And if the glass house you call your home exists in the united states, then your taxes financed filling the soldiers heads with the propaganda, financed sending them out on the field, made sure they had rations and ammo, and paid to put their finger on that trigger. What's your culpability, compadre? You know when you point your finger at someone, you've got three more aimed straight at yourself, right?

[–] sOlitude24k@lemmy.myserv.one 4 points 1 week ago

Oh, no. You misunderstood. I absolutely acknowledge that. It's a pretty spicy issue in my area. It would pretty rad to choose where my taxes go, though. I'd much rather fund schools and national parks. I think that's dragging things a bit off-topic, though.