this post was submitted on 26 Apr 2024

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Does talking to a carnist make you feel like you're witnessing a group delusion? (lemmy.world)

submitted 6 months ago by BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world to c/vegan@lemmy.ml

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I was thinking about this; I know it's hard to change from what you always have known and experienced as normal, so it's not easy to transition out of animal products, but the carnists who show up here to argue with us literally seem crazy to me; their one constant answer is always it's ok to murder and torture animals, and they can never give a good reason why.

It was a huge change for me. But now that I've made it, I cannot believe their endless faulty logic they cling so desperately to for NO reason.

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[–] streetfestival@lemmy.ca 11 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Yes to group delusion, but I feel the same way about many things - climate inaction, the state of democracy, how well-served the average person is by neoliberal capitalism, politics

It sounds like you might be a newer vegan, in which case 1) congrats on making the change - it's great you're here!!! and 2) I want to mention that anger like you might be experiencing now (eg, wtf is wrong with carnists) was a strong emotional reaction that I had after becoming vegan that I didn't see coming and that passed rather quickly. (I'm foggy on the timeline but I recall the intensity wore off after 6 months.)

For example, I have a vivid memory of sitting in a small university class. The class material involved minor mistreatment to a dog (eg, left in a car in a parking lot, no window open for 10 minutes), and my classmates - all of who were omnis, some of whom were eating meat products at that very moment - got so up in arms. I thought "wtf is wrong with you people? How can you see comparably sentient beings in such polarized and incoherent ways?"

In the same way that being vegan takes food skills that are learned with time, I think the same is true with psychological skills about living in a world that we might see as sick and unjust.

The way I see it, it's often easier to do what is popular even if it's morally wrong than to do what is unpopular even if it's morally correct. And as animals we're programmed to do what's easy. I think what's unique to us as humans is our potential to reflect on things and to choose to do what's right over what's easy. Our society doesn't value that type of behaviour.

I think doing what's safe and easy is the main reason why people eat meat, and every delusion is in service of fighting off the cognitive dissonance between a) seeing themselves as good people (something we all want to think) and b) frequently doing something that on some level they're not comfortable with.

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't arrive at through reason. I also don't think you can shame people into changing against the grain of what's easy. I've converted one person to veganism. And I wasn't trying to. We were friends and they brought up the subject of (I'm paraphrasing) "why love one and eat the other" (e.g., dog vs pig/cow). I think I offered them a pretty safe space to think about it and I shared my perspective in a very non-judgemental way. Weeks or months later (I can't remember), they came back to me and said "I went vegan soon after our conversation, and I feel great, and it's been easier than I expected so far." I don't think I could have done my part there unless I was non-reactive and non-judgemental. I think the crucial ingredient is that they had the courage and resources to confront their dissonance and re-evaluate their position.

You're not crazy, you just live in a crazy world. It gets easier with time, and vegan social support and other resources help too

[–] pinchcramp@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Thank you for the wire up. I couldn't have said it better. The only thing i want to give a different perspective on, is this:

I also don’t think you can shame people into changing against the grain of what’s easy.

I think there's countless reasons why people decided to go vegan. And not all of them include understanding and compassion for the carnist's position.

I've become vegan because reading "vegetarians are murders" made me feel awful (was vegetarian at the time). For me, it was definitely a form of shaming, or at least condemnation of my way of life, that made me change.

Different strokes for different folks I guess 🤷‍♂️

[–] streetfestival@lemmy.ca 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for your comment!! I agree there's no one-size-fits-all for how people change for the better. Regarding shame, I think there's an important distinction between the internal emotional experience of shame and the interpersonal behaviour of one person shaming another. Sometimes they go together, sometimes not.

To use my understanding of your case as an example, I wonder if another person verbally shaming you (in front of others) would have led to a similar honest reflection on your behaviour that led you to go vegan? Instead, was it important that you were exposed to a message that could elicit internal shame and that you also had the space and safety to stew on it?

I dealt with a lot of toxic shame as a kid (not related to diet), so I might have biases in thinking about the utility of shame in assisting people in going vegan. I too was vegetarian before vegan. I think for me it was more that a) I realized I should do better (e.g., after watching vegan documentaries), and b) I felt willing and able to give it a try. I think someone shaming me would have only slowed me down getting to a) and b). But, as you said: different strokes for different folks

[–] pinchcramp@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I love this. I've never thought about what my trajectory would have looked like, if I had been shamed in person.

Now that I think about it, I'm not even sure shame is really the emotion that I was feeling before going vegan. I think having to face the reality of my actions probably elicited guilt rather than shame, because there was no social aspect to it (I don't even know who wrote the sentence in the first place).

I think shame might be more effective for behavior change when it comes from one's social context. There were times when I was younger, I wouldn't mention I was vegan around coworkers, because I was ashamed of what they might have thought (yes, I've eaten vegetarian meals after becoming vegan).

On that token, I would say shame might only "work" in social settings, where the majority is vegan already. But that would probably not make someone believe in animal rights. Rather it might influence a person's actions while in that setting.

Thank you for your well thought out reply. You've changed by mind 😄

Btw, I'm sorry to hear that you experienced a lot of shame in your childhood. I hope your doing better nowadays.

[–] streetfestival@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 months ago

Interesting reflections! Great chatting with you :)

[–] BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I don't want to shame anyone, I just cannot get over the constant arguments that it's somehow ok to murder something and eat it.

[–] streetfestival@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I hear ya! My stance, personally, is that those of us that live in as much comfort as many humans do (eg, climate control in a house) have a responsibility treat other sentient beings better than non-human predators do and certainly better than human society currently does - ie, raise/kill-in-the-most-cheap/inhumane way possible.

Thanks for sharing what you're going through. It's good to talk about this stuff. Nevermind the downvotes. I think I covered that type of behaviour in my last comment ;P

[–] BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

Oh I don't give a care,as they say on Letterkenny. Carnists want any reason to hate on us lol. The logic is just boggling once you've woken up.

[–] iiGxC@slrpnk.net 3 points 6 months ago

Eh, shame (or rather, guilt) is a healthy emotion when you do something harmful and don't make amends for it. It's an emotion that's meant to motivate the person feeling it to do better, athough it can be hijacked by social pressure to make people feel shame when they've done nothing wrong, which is worth watching out for (especially common around sex).

If I steal from a friend, I should feel guilt/shame because I did something hurtful to my friend. Someone running a dog fighting ring should be ashamed of themselves for perpetuating and profitting off violence. Someone contributing to animal agriculture should be ashamed of themselves for supporting violence and exploitation and abuse because it's convenient and gives them pleasure. I feel ashamed of using fossil fuels and water inefficiently, among other things, but that helps motivate me to try to change.