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I feel like I’m the only person in this room feeling like it’s kinda dystopian! Do you really want to see those devices become the norm?
With the father filming his children and all that shit we saw in the ad? Let’s live in the present, not through the camera of a device made by mega-corporation.
I think people who are into it can be into it and people who aren't don't have to be. Every innovation had detractors lamenting it. And many of those innovations miss the mark and never take off.
Dystopian seems to really overstate it. I'm not rushing out to buy one but I'm not ruling it out eventually if I find a good use case. Probably not filming my kids but maybe there's something. Some kind of mixed reality LARP game maybe.
As a developer I’m so excited that’s true, but that’s ridiculous the way they portray it as a normal thing to wear it in public lol it’s so eerie
I think of the marketing as a bunch of nerds who want it to exist for niche reasons trying to find a way to appeal to normies because who is going to spend that much money to watch a dragon set fire to New York or have CGI bad guys lurking around corners only to pop out to be shot or going to comicon to have the amazing cosplays somehow enhanced even further with animation.
I feel like it's inherently a non-mass market device trying desperately for mass-market appeal because nerds can't afford $10k to stomp around the city as a giant mech in the hope they run into another one and have a duel.
But let's be more real. How cool would it be to look around and see other users with a tag cloud and you instantly know you can talk to that person about Star Wars or anime or football or dating? How much easier would it be to make small talk or even friends?
There's a lot of potential in such a device if it takes off. But I don't know if the devices are mature enough yet. And achieving mass-market appeal is a whole other hurdle and if it can't get past that the rest is moot.
Obviously I wouldn't want to see Apple be the only game in town. There has to be a minimum of two significant players to drive innovation, but someone has to create the market first. Apple might be able to do that.
Yeah but that's just marketing bullshit, just like how in real life, (normal and attractive) people don't pull out a Nintendo Switch and pass around joycons to play Mario Kart on the phablet-sized screen at trendy rooftop cocktail parties.
What would you call wearing some chunky headphones while walking down the street?
A couple decades ago, only freaks did that.
Nowadays it's so popular, people don't even take them off when entering a shop, or going to the doctor (source: went to the doctor yesterday, sat next to a couple people with chunky headphones isolating themselves from the real world).
The ad is really dystopian, the dad is ignoring the kid IRL and playing with memories of that kid
Now: the dad watches his smartphone and shouts "more to the left!" while the kids try to play.
Tomorrow: the dad is interacting with the kids IRL, while what he experiences gets recorded transparently.
After tomorrow: "drink a verification can to start recording..."
There is a thin line between dystopian, utopian, and back to dystopian 🤷
I see potential on the technology as a fake monitor. No need to have monitors on your PC setup, just connect the thingy into your PC and use it to generate a fake screen. Now I want a movie, the fake screen takes the whole wall, now a game, it takes 27', now to work, it creates 3-4 virtual screens/apps to place in the wall.
I would pay a lot for something like it. The freedom it provides seems great. If the thing has the resolution it says it has, and they showed how you could connect it to a mac, if it takes off, the only possible future I see for high end PCs is virtual monitors.
Especially with the fake "eye" it creates for you on the front of the device. It's creepy and dystopian af. Like we're all sitting around wearing AR goggles, with fake eyes displayed on the outside so it still looks like we're engaging with people around us.
I mean, I can maybe see a use case for something like this, where you're prototyping a build, modelling something, etc. Especially if you have more than one person and they can all collaborate on and interact with the same objects. But I'm having a really hard time seeing other use cases. Gaming on macOS isn't really a thing, as much as the latest Apple silicon releases would like you to believe. AAA devs aren't porting their games to macOS. So what else? Watching movies? Browsing the web? Why would I spend nearly $4000 for a device to do that?
I think Apple overall is generally really good about taking existing tech and pushing the envelope with it, and/or making it more usable and appealing for the masses. And even if this thing does represent a big step in xR, what's the end goal? What's the killer app? What's the overall... vision for the product?
I put googley eyes on my quest and saved a bunch of money compared to the apple thing
Especially with the fake "eye" it creates for you on the front of the device.
I can totally see a fringe use case for meetings etc. where you can look super attentive while daydreaming or sleeping.
Can you view that ad somewhere online? I'd love to see it (to understand better how Apple is marketing this thing)
Thank you!!
I don't really see the "Apple portrays people outside wearing the headset" that was mentioned here though. The only example given of that is on a plane which is a time where most people prefer to socially distance themselves from their fellow passengers anyway.
When he watches memories of his children instead of being in the moment and playing with them lol
Ah but I had a feeling about this that his kids were already grown up and gone.
But indeed, when it was purportedly recorded he wouldn't have been playing with them, good point.
As much as I enjoy hating on Apple, their track record popularising niche technology is admittedly pretty good. They made mp3 players mainstream, then everyone else scrambled to catch up. They made smartphones mainstream, then everyone scrambled to catch up. I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to pull off the same thing with VR/AR. Just don't mention the Newton.
The Newton was before its time. So many features we use our phones for today were pioneered in the PDA era.
The headline makes it sound like a bad thing, but that's more than plenty for launch if they are distinct apps that represent a variety of use cases. Frankly, it's a lot more than I would expect for a new product like this. Sure, there's VR and AR available now, but Apple has a track record of rolling together existing tech in a package that's more accessible and often more useful. You can throw a few things out there to showcase what's possible, but you also have to wait and see how consumers actually want to use it. They will find use cases the creators didn't think of or were unsure about. Then the floodgates can really open up in terms of apps. I really wouldn't be surprised to see people wearing these things out in public.
A $3500 headset is not accessible.
I really wouldn’t be surprised to see people wearing these things out in public.
You know it is corded, right?
Just putting it out there, many people you see walking around with a detachable lens camera are wearing about that much visible gear on their person, if not far more.
So what number of apps is it?
“Only 150+” provides zero information regarding quantity
Well it does say n >= 150. But the phrasing makes it sound like it is trying to imply that this is a small number.
Exactly. The statement doesn’t validate in the sense check, making the >= 150 back into a maybe because I’m uncertain if it makes sense at all.
It's not 150 unique apps. The article says:
It’s not just Netflix, Spotify, and YouTube that don’t have apps for Apple’s Vision Pro at launch.(...) As of this weekend, the AR/VR device’s App Store has just 150+ apps that were updated for the Vision Pro explicitly
You can watch Netflix on the Vision Pro in a browser but they didn't create a specific app for it like for example for iOS. 150 other apps were updated to run on the device. We're not talking about apps that run only on Vision Pro, just apps that have specific Vision Pro version. It's like if when Apple released the iPad only 150 apps were tested, maybe slightly adapted and marked in AppStore as iPad compatible.
150 is nothing. There are millions of apps in the AppStore, all (if not all, most) of them could be updated to run on the VisionPro and developers of only 150 bothered to do it. That's terrible result.
150 apps that has been explicitly updated to support a device that's so expensive that's guaranteed that nobody would actually buy it is a lot. And it's not even on sale yet!
For comparison look at the Microsoft hololens. Similar concept and similar price, announced 8 years ago, can only dream of having 150 useful apps. If i go on the hololens store page it says "Showing 1 - 90 of 321 items" and you can see that are mostly demos or proof of concepts.
8 years after the launch has just over double the apps for a device that will launch next month
You don't know what effort is needed to update an app for Vision Pro. For most apps it's probably just marking a checkbox in the XCode and releasing an update. What special features will you add to PCalc? It will just float in front of you like every other app. Do you need to write any special code to make it work on Vision Pro?
Most of those millions of apps are crap that hasn't been updated in years, and they don't have millions of users (not the kind of users who would by a Vision Pro at launch, anyway). I haven't read the list but I'm betting the 150 that are here are much more popular and useful for this platform -- the kinds of apps that would actively benefit from this technology and that the users actually want and will use.
the kinds of apps that would actively benefit from this technology and that the users actually want and will use.
Pre-installed apps optimized for Vision Pro:
App Store
Encounter Dinosaurs
Files
Freeform
Keynote
Mail
Messages
Mindfulness
Music
Notes
Photos
Safari
Settings
Tips
TV
Here’s a full list of third-party apps confirmed for VisionOS so far:
Disney+
Microsoft Excel
Microsoft Word
Microsoft Teams
Zoom
WebEx
Adobe Lightroom
Unity-based apps and games (titles TBC)
Sky Guide
Yeah, because when I use Safari, Notes and Word what I REALLY need is augmenter reality.
I'm just trying to surf spreadsheets in the metaverse man
Excel seems interesting with the Vision Pro. Imagine infinite 3D spreadsheets!
Gonna hack the Gibson!
because when I use Safari, Notes and Word what I REALLY need is augmenter reality
You may not realize it, but you actually want AR for everything: pick up some coffee, read some news, take some notes, write them into a document... while still sipping your coffee, and no computers in sight.
AR is not the tiny dancing characters you see through your phone's camera, that's a silly gimmick. AR is the equivalent of picking a bunch of sheets of paper, and having them display the different apps, except without any paper, or taking any physical space, or buying more devices to fill your workspace.
read some news, take some notes, write them into a document… while still sipping your coffee,
Because I cannot sip at my coffee while looking at my monitor? What a strange idea.
As strange as looking at your monitor, instead of buying a newspaper that you can take to the bathroom then reuse it when you're done.
Having monitors, screens, and other displays scattered around, will be as backwards as the newspaper thing. Why even buy a monitor, when you have all the virtual monitors you might ever want, right there on your head?
Sure as long as 'all the virtual monitors you might ever want' is exactly one monitor. You do know that Vision Pro can only simulate one display when working with a Mac? We're talking about specific device not some imaginary thing Apple will release 10 years from now. Jesus, Mac fanboys are just the worst...
We're talking about specific device
I was talking about AR, not a specific device.
Jesus, Mac fanboys are just the worst...
Right... thanks, but no thanks.
Ok, I see how you could get confused and think we're talking about some non-existing, future product instead of the device this post is actually about. No problem, this happens.
When it comes to AR in general Magic Leap was pushing it hard for a very long time and after they released actual device their value quickly dropped. AR for general public is a gimmick, it doesn't solve any problems, no one wants it. It has very interesting applications in some very specific fields and definitely will find it uses with professionals but when it comes to your dream of looking at 15 4k screens while sitting on a toilet most people are happy with just their phones.
Magic Leap fell for the same trap as many VR/AR projects before it: let the marketing department overpromise, then have clients disappointed when they underdeliver. Don't get mistaken, I also think this Apple Vision Pro is overpromising, and that they'll get hit hard for it.
Still, most people would jump at the opportunity of shitting in the woods, or on the moons of Jupiter, or in their favorite fantasy porn den... it's part of why making appealing marketing for this stuff is so easy: people love to get carried away by gimmicks.
And yet again, none of that changes the actual utility of AR, which, if implemented correctly, goes far beyond a gimmick and becomes life changing.
It just needs to pass a single filter: human capabilities. In particular, vision and balance perception.
Vision
Vision is ironically a pretty low and high bar at the same time: the optical nerve only has 1M signals going through it, that's about 640x480x3, a VGA display could fool it. At the same time, the eye can scan its surroundings with a fovea with an equivalent 60 pixels per degree, with about 135° horizontal × 180° vertical.
The Magic Leap 2 has a 45°×55° FOV (70° diagonal), with a 1440×1760 display, giving it a 30PPD, or about 1/4 (square) of human vision, and a very limited viewing area.
The Apple Vision Pro claims a 110° FOV (presumably diagonal) with 4K displays or 2160×3840... for around a 40PPD, or about 1/2 (square) of human vision, with still a quite small viewing area.
Human vision with a 135°×180° FOV at 60PPD, would require something in the range of 8100×10800px static displays.
Balance
Balance perception has to do with visual feedback, and the vestibulo-ocular reflex... which is informed on one side by the vestibular system, that barely reacts at more than 10Hz, and the retina cones that are capable of reacting at up to 400Hz!
The idea of pre-scanning the environment in the Magic Leap and Apple Vision Pro, looks like a step in the right direction, allowing the system to pre-render images into the future, adapted to the probable environment... but I think they'll still get smashed against the 400Hz barrier.
Meaning, a static display system would need a couple of 16K HDR screens running at 480Hz... which is way above anything being sold or even planned right now. There have been alternative technical solutions, like eye tracking while projecting directly onto the retina, but they seem to still have most of the same limitations.
So... 10 years into the future you said? Maybe. I got an Oculus DK1 about 10 years ago... then promptly went part blind in one eye... but still had a chance at seeing what 640x800 per eye at below 10PPD and 250Hz looked like (like crap, and made a lot of people vomit).
10 years sounds like the timeframe for a wide adoption where people go around with their AR goggles onto the street, some in groups with their virtual friends, some on a peaceful meadow with no one in sight, some with their IRL families or friends and any mix of the aforementioned.
Yeah it's like the early days of the iPad, when devs could make their iPhone apps available for the iPad as a scaled up version. They weren't iPad apps, but they were on the store marked as such (and were wildly unusable like that), so the numbers were incredibly misleading.
If I remember correctly, apple also made it so iPad apps automatically work on the Vision Pro unless if the dev explicitly disables it, which is also a plus
This makes a lot of sense. Apple is asking users to use the same apps with the same UI floating in your real workspace. Even if it doesn't have much gaming support, it'll be preferable to others (Meta) for the immediate familiarity and utility.
Then again, I can't imagine it can stay at this price point for long, unless it becomes a MacBook replacement.
It seems to run on an M2 processor, so that would put it on par with a MacBook Air, which seems to be fine for some... just at over 3x the price.
I will wait for the budget version in a few years, but Plex would be rad
🤖 I'm a bot that provides automatic summaries for articles:
Click here to see the summary
But it is indicative of how many companies rushed to build for the new platform, specifically — and given the size of Apple’s wider developer base, it’s a smaller number.
Still, one can’t overlook the negative sentiment that Apple has stoked among its developer community after the fallout of Epic Games’ antitrust lawsuit against the tech giant.
The company also said it would only reduce commissions down to 27% from 30%, making the option a non-starter for many app makers, given that credit card processing fees could be even higher than the 3% discount.
Meta, which makes its own VR headset, has also unsurprisingly opted not to specifically build native apps for the Vision Pro, Appfigures’ list reveals.
Plus, Appfigures reveals a few other big brands and popular apps that have been built for Vision Pro specifically, including Box, Carrot Weather, Webex, Zoom, Fantastical, and others.
This is possible because the apps for Vision Pro run natively and “use the same frameworks, resources, and runtime environment as they do on iOS and iPadOS,” an Apple support document explains.
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