this post was submitted on 20 Jul 2023
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[–] realcaseyrollins@kbin.projectsegfau.lt 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You think that's enough? Or do we still need to give them more money?

(Let's take note that the citizens are still poor, and Ukraine is still losing, reportedly still being outgunned as well)

[–] Version@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Idk where you got this from, but Ukraine won in Kyiv, Kherson and Kharkiv. Currently the front moves very slowly towards Russia. No, the offensive isn‘t a huge success and I would even consider it a failure, but the fact that Ukraine can even start an offensive is proving that the weapon deliveries are working.

[–] lemmyshmemmy@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wouldn't call it anything yet, Ukrainians haven't even used the bulk of their fresh troops and equipment.

[–] Version@feddit.de 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But why tho. This could be just propaganda. Hopefully not.

[–] lemmyshmemmy@lemmy.world -2 points 1 year ago

No doubt it's complicated, but some key factors are

  • Availability of ammunition (cluster munitions may help here)
  • Destroying artillery before advancing (the daily numbers have been looking good)
  • Removing mines before advancing
  • Disabling logistics (e.g. strikes on bridges, warehouses)
  • Waiting for a lucky opportunity

It doesn't cost them much to do things slowly, but keeping the Kremlin on its toes and embarrassed is good. The longer Ukraine holds on, the more equipment they get, like F-16s, Abrams, and ATACMS.

[–] Ilovethebomb@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Uhh, wat? Ukraine is currently regaining territory from Russia, how are they losing?

Fucking tankies.

[–] gary_host_laptop@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

How much money do you want to bet? You seem confident and it seems like you read your news about the topic.

[–] djsaskdja@reddthat.com 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

But you still have to pay back your student loans and pay a small fortune for healthcare because fuck you.

[–] pyromaster55@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Two have basically nothing to do with each other.

We are still the richest nation in the world. 2.3 billion sounds like a lot, but its nothing to the us gov, it's nothing to the defense budget alone, and it is actively wrecking the military capabilities of one of our top geopolitical rivals.

I'm not going to pretend to understand the intricacies of the Russia/Ukraine situation, but I know this is peanuts compared to what it could cost us, and we don't even have boots on the ground. This is the deal of a century.

Be mad at the corrupt piece of shit republicans forcing you to go into crippling debt for healthcare and education, not the innocent Ukrainians fighting for their lives and democracy.

[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

The good thing about a 2-party system is that you can always point to the other party as to why things are the way they are. :)

[–] Ilovethebomb@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

American pays mores per capita for healthcare than most countries with a single payer system.

You'd actually save money if you changed.

[–] djsaskdja@reddthat.com 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I get your point, but I’m not sure if that’s true. Americans in general are very unhealthy. I think that might explain why it’s more expensive at least somewhat.

[–] 133arc585@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Do you not see the chicken-or-egg situation here? They're more unhealthy because of bad healthcare. That (bad) healthcare is more expensive because they're more unhealthy.

Moreover, much of the reason the healthcare is so expensive is because of insurance overhead, for-profit middlemen (including hospitals, private equity owning doctors offices, etc), massive prescription medication markups because people can't go without medication, and other inefficiencies in the system. Even with an unhealthy population, it doesn't need to be nearly as expensive as it is.

[–] djsaskdja@reddthat.com 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I see it. It makes sense. I just don’t know if it’d initially be cheaper. I still think it’s the right thing to do, but it might take a generation for the savings to start happening.

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[–] Jaysyn@kbin.social -4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

One of the best uses of my tax dollars in my entire lifetime.

[–] krzschlss@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

And one of the worst uses of the 2 brain cells you have left. Your tax dollars are the driving force for war and misery across the globe for decades now, the only difference is that your government isn't hiding it anymore, because they know now that you zombies will give all your money for some entertainment on the news after shooting up a school.

[–] EnderWi99in@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] krzschlss@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Jawohl Herr Obersturmbannführer! Für das Vaterland!

[–] fiah@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

if you want to call attention to the fucked up shit that the USA and NATO has done in the last couple of decades, comparing it with supplying weapons to a democracy to defend itself against an invading bunch of fascist war criminals is definitely NOT helping your case

edit: I have been informed that Ukraine isn't perfect, and that therefor the invasion and the long list of war crimes perpetrated by the invaders are justified

[–] krzschlss@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Democracy? The US and NATO aren't fighting for democracy. They are losing a cheap sex tourist destination in Eastern Europe because of this war. That's worth all those Billions! Don't give me the "defending democracy" excuse!

[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

A democracy that recently announced that it postponed elections, a year after declaring the opposition parties as illegal.

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[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

Who doesn't like their tax dollars being spent on killing people instead of socialist stuff like healthcare, education, social workers and government services that actually serve citizens.

[–] krzschlss@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

They have no need for healthcare, education and stuff. They are afraid of their own shadows, they just need guns to defend themselves. In the end, they can just eat those bullets to survive. ...or shoot some skool.

[–] anewbeginning@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, in your mind, helping to prevent civilians from dying in a war zone and stopping countries being taken over by foreign powers to be exploited is not a worthy humanitarian effort?

[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

European countries are taking somewhat decent care of Ukrainian refugees, which can't be said for refugees that aren't white skinned.

And did you just collate military equipment with a humanitarian effort or am misreading that?

I'm in full support of any real humanitarian aid possible: Support their wounded and sick, support their people with basic needs (generators/energy, food, water, clothing, temporary housing, psych support etc).

Sometimes I'm really surprised at some of these questions you people come up with.

Edit: Typo.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The main difference between Ukrainian refugees and what we usually get is that Ukrainians are, without exception, well-educated enough to start working right away, and not just in unskilled low-income jobs. Compare that with, say, Somalis with virtually no education, and not even able to sit through a class because they never got accustomed to as kids, then competing with natives for a very limited number of those low-income jobs. That's why Ukrainians get working permits straight away while we'd rather pay welfare for the Somalis until they're ready.

I don't know what it is with Seppos and making everything about race. There's actual fucking issues with integrating people from non-developed countries that are completely absent in the case of Ukraine. Ukraine may be piss-poor, yes, but its fundamentals are solid, quite a bit better than Romania and Bulgaria even I'd say and those are EU members.

EDIT: While PISA numbers are to be taken with a whole salt shaker as measuring good education is notoriously difficult (see "teach the test") Ukraine outranks Greece across the disciplines. More or less head-to head with Italy.

[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I was talking about the way they were treated, not which refugee is the better worker drone.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee -2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ukrainians don't burn their passports and refuse to aid in their identification, if that's what you're alluding to because that's the kind of stuff gets you shitcanned in the "You can stay in a camp with full board and meagre pocket money and leave the country at any time but forget starting a life here" way, as the only reason to do that is if you don't actually qualify for refugee status or asylum. But, again, nothing to do with race.

[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your basically proving my point, I rest my case.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

What, because I assume that people would rather have a life than hang around in limbo in a camp? Yes, yes I do. OTOH it's also completely besides the point as I'm describing, plain and simply, the difference between your "brown" and "white" immigrants. The difference is that they come from different conditions, not that they have different levels of melanin -- I mean seriously they often don't. You have yet to make even an inkling of an argument to the contrary.

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[–] UFODivebomb@programming.dev 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The USA could afford what's being provided to Ukraine and socialized benefits. But chooses not to because of some dumb reason or another.

[–] sparkl_motion@beehaw.org 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is the answer. It isn’t a zero sum game.

[–] ZombieTheZombieCat@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

It's more the hypocrisy of some people. The ones who cheer for a huge defense/foreign aid budget year after year no matter who it's for, and then leave bitchy comments on FB about student loan forgiveness being "unfair" because it uses their tax dollars.

[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, yeah, they have the biggest money printer on the planet, so they could've socialized almost everything for their citizens if it didn't go all into their black budgets, military, bribery and foreign meddling instead, but here they are, 32T in debt, double the debt from 10 years ago, ~100k of debt per person. If that's not a failed state, I don't know what is.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If that's not a failed state, I don't know what is.

You probably don't know what is it. I mean, look at South Africa for a recent example of a failed state.

[–] zephyrvs@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

perhaps do some research on the colonial history of South Africa and Western exploitation and read up on the definition of the term failed state and then look at some news reports regarding the US. I don't know how some of you people keep on coming up with these cheap rebuttals that you obviously haven't spent more than a minute of thinking on.

[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The US is already spending as much federal tax dollars per capita on healthcare as the UK spends on the NHS. Figures that bailing out hospitals when patients invariably default on their debt is expensive: In the US they have tons of people ending up in ER requiring expensive treatment that would've been way cheaper and easier to treat preventively -- but to do prevention you need to be able to afford a doctor's visit. Sure you can stop spending that money but then you either let hospitals go bankrupt, or you have to allow them to reject patients and have them dying on the streets. Even for Americans that's a bit too much.

I don't really have the numbers for education but one big point there is that in the US, education is largely funded by local taxes, that is, schools in low-income areas are severely underfunded, while those in high-income areas are overfunded. If anything it should be the exact opposite, the worst areas need the best schools to lift them up.

But fixing either would cut into corporate profits and/or severely alleviate income equality (and, in the US, thereby, race inequality) so, yeah, don't hold your breath.

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