The headline is wrong. Nobody needs to support Israel. But it is clear you must acknowledge its right to exist.
this post was submitted on 06 Dec 2023
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Was going to say that.. the headline is missing
" 's right to exist "
Imagine if the German state required you to acknowledge Rhodesia's right to exist though...
Is there a growing resentment and hate against rhodesians?
Is Rhodesia internationally recognised?
I mean it wasn't beloved and luckily it got stamped out before it got recognized.
Why should a Palestinian recognize Israel's right to exist? After all, Israel has not even apologized for the terrible acts it committed before its founding as a state. Nor for the terrible acts it committed after the founding of the state to prevent the existence of a state of Palestine for all eternity.
If you disenfranchise, deprive, humiliate and harass a population in such a way that a certain proportion of that population inevitably grows into terrorists (and even the non-terrorists agree to them), then you should not be surprised if terrorist attacks occur. It is inevitable.
The first thing one should do in that case is fulfill the duties that come with having power over a population. And next you should talk to representatives of this population, preferably elected representatives of this population.
Yes, even if they are terrorists, negotiation and government accountability are the best way to turn terrorists into former terrorists. (It has also worked for many Israeli politicians who have had terrorist pasts.)
I don’t want to say what a Palestinian should do.
But if someone wants to become German, they must not have extremist tendencies. And not recognising an internationally recognised state is an extremist opinion.
You can still say the Israeli government is committing atrocities and should be removed from office. That is ok.
So you have to support Israel by acknowledging it’s right to exist.
this headline is highly misleading! First of all its only one (!) state in germany, also a very far right one and those rules only apply for that very state.
The other thing is you do not have to 'support' Israel you have to accept Israel as a independent state, their borders, that they are allowed to defend themselves and you shouldn't say or take part in antisemitism related activities.
You can still criticize Israel very much for the way they are fighting the Hamas and the civilian casualties that they are causing, you don't have to say yes and amen to everything Israel is doing and also you don't have to support them. You are just not allowed to debugger their existence...
And I highly doubt that our other states will follow this in any way...
Well the point is, that the whole "support the existence of the country" is very vague. Do I disqualify if I think that the illegal settlers need to ge the fuck out of the Westbank? Of what if I would boycott products procuded in Israel? Does that count as not supporting the existence of the country?". Which borders of what year or which treaty are meant by this? Would Israel consisting of only half of Jerusalem still count?
Now you add that this law was made by the state in Germany with the biggest amount of Nazis and it all seems very dishonest and just another ploy to fuck with immigrants. So I wouldn't surprise at all if they will apply this law in the strictest form possible to deny as many applicants as they can. That whole "every critique of Israel is antisemitism" stick Netanyahu and his cronies are doing to discredit everyone even slightly critical of them seems exactly like what Sachsen will do with this new law.
Well the point is, that the whole “support the existence of the country” is very vague. Do I disqualify if I think that the illegal settlers need to ge the fuck out of the Westbank? Of what if I would boycott products procuded in Israel? Does that count as not supporting the existence of the country?". Which borders of what year or which treaty are meant by this? Would Israel consisting of only half of Jerusalem still count?
I think in general this is more aimed at the idiots who sing the "from the river to the sea" and want to get rid of Israel. In the native form of those articles there is no word of "support" you just have to acknowledge Israel its right to exist and dont have to be a racist fuck. So I would say the bar to gain a german citizenship is pretty low ;)
The thing is that it can be used against you later to throw you out simply by joining a pro-palestine rally. "Well you marched with people demonstrating wrongthink even though on your application it said you think Israel has legal right to exist, therefore you lied on your application and your right to stay is voided.". It stifles free-speech because it can (and most likely will) be used to target people who criticise Israel even within the two-state paradigm.
Yeah that would work if that law was designed and will be carried out in good faith. But I don't trust Sachsen-Anhalt of all states to do so!
When you look at the recent history of this state with Nazis, including those in their own police and offices, and how it constantly fails to do even the slightest thing against them I don't trust them that they now suddenly are doing this in good faith. The intent of this law seems to be very clear and the vagueness of it isn't an accident but the important feature of it for it to be applied as broadly as possible.
One thing has been clearly stated by both conservative and progressive German leaders, over and over in the past 25 years: "Die Sicherheit Israels ist Deutsche Staatsraison"
Loosely translated: "Israel's security is a basic foundation of the German state."
What this means is that anyone who denies Israel's right to exist, also denies the German state as it is today.
So no, you can't become a German citizen if you don't acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
That is just polemic though. Populists saying this phrase, does not make it a reality. The German state is separate from Israel and it's right to exist.
I wouldn't call Angela Merkel a populist in any sense of the word.
The statement is definitely populist though. It's used by politicians for political gain. Not on some legal or moral base.
The interesting thing here is: this missleading headline comes from the official state news outlet of Germany...
The "official state news outlet of Germany" would be something like the Bundespresseamt I guess. DW and other public broadcasters are state funded but operate independent of it.
Nyos...
Most of our public broadcasting is decidedly NOT state funded. It's funded through the broadcasting fee and the government has no more influence over it than it does over private services.
Except for DW, which is not funded through the broadcasting fee but through our taxes and is actually 100% owned by the state. It is the official international broadcaster of the German state.
However:
The work of DW is regulated by the Deutsche Welle Act,[note 1][5] stating that content is intended to be independent of government influence.
So it's not like DW can only say what the government wants it to say.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Zieschang previously said her ministry had sent a decree to all Saxony-Anhalt municipalities informing them of the policy in late November.
The decree instructs authorities to pay close attention to whether an applicant exhibits antisemitic attitudes and states that "obtaining German citizenship requires a commitment to Israel's right to exist."
In a letter to local authorities, the Saxony-Anhalt state Interior Ministry said naturalization is to be denied to foreigners who engage in activities directed at Germany's liberal democratic order as outlined in the country's Basic Law.
Local authorities have been instructed to deny an applicant's naturalization request if they refuse to sign the declaration.
Germany, which claims a special historical responsibility to protect Jews after the horrors of the Holocaust — in which Germany's then Nazi government organized the industrial-scale murder of over 6 million European Jews during the Second World War — has called Israel's security its own "Staatsräson," or "reason of state," as then Chancellor Angela Merkel proclaimed in an address to the Israeli parliament in 2008.
There has been considerable discussion in Germany regarding the issue of antisemitic attitudes among migrants who harbor resentment against Israel, with pro-Palestinian demonstrations across the country becoming flashpoints for antisemitic behavior in the wake of the October 7 Hamas terror attacks in southern Israel.
The original article contains 364 words, the summary contains 208 words. Saved 43%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
I get that they want to make up for the holocaust, but this is a bit much...
it's not germany it's one state of germany...
The German state with the biggest numbers of AfD voters. Which has massive problems with police members getting caught sharing Nazi stuff in their chats all the time and generally is doing a very shitty job at combating local Neo-Nazis!
But I'm sure they are totally honest with the intent of this law and they are really concerned about anti-semitism.
The German state with the biggest numbers of AfD voters. Which has massive problems with police members getting caught sharing Nazi stuff in their chats all the time and generally is doing a very shitty job at combating local Neo-Nazis!
agreed. I'm german and would love get those afd cunts forbidden, but for some reason people think it's not necessary...
Isn't it funny how the NPD wasn't forbidden because it was to unsignificant but now the AfD apperantly can't be forbidden because they are too big?
Seems to me this whole concept of the "Wehrhafte Demokratie" wasn't properly thought through.
it's called learning from your mistakes. source: grew up in germany. once you're shown original holocaust footage in school you don't quite easily dismiss israel's right to exist
The whole term is just nonsense.
A state has three defining features: A territory, a people and a government. Anyone who claims the right of Israel to exist should answer specifically which territory, which people and which government.
I have yet to see someone able to specify these in a way that does not involve forced displacement of Palestinians and justifying other crimes according to international law. And if someone refers only to the territorial areas according to the UN accords, then the next step would be to condemn Israel as a brutal opressive regime, that is illegaly occupying and trying to annex territories that they have no right to.
Finally there is no part of international law that gives states a right to exist. People have a right to exist and people have the right to sovereignity that they can exercise through a state. But as long as the current state of Israel exists it is denying this right to the Palestinians. So anyone claiming a right for Israel to exist is claiming support of crimes against humanity and denying millions of people their rights.
Oh and something that just crossed my mind too. While Israel gets a right to exist and is German "reason of state" because of the holocaust, other people that were just as terribly tortured and murdered by the Nazis did not and do not get the recognition. Queer people, people with disabilities, Sinti, Roma, Communists. None of them received proper reparations and acknowledgement by Germany. The jewish people are abused as a token to claim having bettered and learned from the past mistakes, while other Holocaust victims were and are continuously discriminated.
Haha, yeah sure! Sachsen of all states is learning from their mistake and honestly try to get rid of anti-semtitism! At least as long it's from foreigners, if it's their own police sharing Nazi stuff in chats then it's no big problem and nothing can be done. Getting the biggest numbers of AfD voters also certainly isn't a problem at all ;-).
No its not.