shouldnt the EMT be the responsible party to say 'no officer, this person does not have that problem'?
i wouldnt trust a cop with...well.. almost anything of mine personally. its outright terrifying they can make this medical decision.
this post was submitted on 02 Dec 2023
314 points (98.8% liked)
News
23406 readers
3008 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Technically EMS doesn't diagnose. We assess and treat symptoms to keep the patient stable until we can get them to a medical facility. Of course there are things that are blindingly easy to diagnose and generally most doctors won't tell you "you can't diagnose that open femur fracture, that's my job". But officially the line has always been that we don't diagnose so when we are recording and reporting things we will typically say something like "the patient is showing symptoms of XYZ" rather than "the patient has XYZ".
When it comes to dealing with police officially they are the only people that can involuntarily commit someone (at least in my area). And officially EMS has to respect that decision however that doesn't always happen. There used to be a cop in my area that used to try to do that to anyone who "was problematic" and that officer got really used to hearing no from EMS. Other times EMS works with police is when there is a danger on the scene. For example if you're called out for a gunshot wound and it is suspected that the gunman is still there then you don't go in. You stage a block or two away and let the blue canaries clear the place first.
Why are cops in the US making diagnoses?
Cops are not trained of medical personnel, and have ulterior motives
Fuck what the Pieces Of Shit Training Board says, why the fuck were paramedics giving someone ketamine?
There was another systemic failure here and this feels like smoke and mirrors.
Ketamine does have valid medical uses, namely pain killing and sedation, it's that in cases such as these it's completely unnecessary
That's my point. There are literally dozens of drugs that would have been more appropriate than ketamine in this situation.
Ketamine is widely considered one of the safest drugs, so safe that only cops could find a way to overdose someone on it.
I didn't say it wasn't safe...
You're confusing the chemical science of things like LD50s of substances, with recommended medical practice by medical bodies such as which specific medicines are appropriate in which medical situations.
Again: there are dozens of medicines that would have been more appropriate than ketamine in this situation.
Why would those other medications be more appropriate. What's the problem with Ketamine in the first place?
This is a question best answered by an actual doctor or pharmacist. My line of reasoning is about established medical procedure, not the pharmacology or psychopharmacology of each possible medicine or substance that could be used in this situation.
Ketamine doesn't carry the risk of respiratory depression and hypotension that other sedatives and pain killers do. No risk that you might have to immediately intubate someone.
Haloperidol is less risky still in terms of respiratory influence, though ketamine is faster acting.
But this doesn't really add anything, nor does it answer my question about why they didn't go with established medical procedure in this case that ended with the unnecessary death of a person, in no small part due to that break with procedure.
Sorry I was only addressing the reasoning behind paramedics being allowed to administer ketamine in the field and not other drugs. And reviewing this case, I don't see any indication for haloperidol either. They should not have drugged this person at all:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Elijah_McClain
But we should have teams of psychiatric professionals who are qualified to administer things like haloperidol responding to emergency calls that are specifically stated to be for psychiatric crises. I don't really want random paramedics in charge of choosing when to administer haloperidol, which can have significant and permanent side effects even after one dose.
Because k-holes fell great!