Changing the guards of a prison, doesn't make it less a prison. There needs to be economic trade, economic development, a path to prosperity for people to believe in so they stop investing in the past.
this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2023
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As long as Gaza is entirely surrounded by Israel or countries doing Israels bidding, it will remain a prison, unless Israel goes through serious reform and atops being a brutal opressive regime.
For that to happen all illegal settlements would need to be dismantled though.
Or we need the formation af a new state that includes all territories, gives equal rights to arabs and jews and returns as much land as possible to displaced palestinians as well as compensates them properly. Also all terrirorists, that means also all settler terrorists need to be tried and convicted for their atrocities. For that i think it would be best do these trials at the ICC and provide prison facilities in Europe for the pre trial and post trial imprisonment of terrorists.
If Palestinians are given a real perspective and some justice i think it could work out. It would require the current terrorists and corrupt criminals in both governments to be removed from power though. So Bibi and Abbas will fight it tooth and nails.
As an intermediate step we would probably need a new UN mandate and lots of pressure to make Israels apartheid government step down.
As long as Gaza is entirely surrounded by Israel or countries doing Israels bidding, it will remain a prison, unless Israel goes through serious reform and atops being a brutal opressive regime.
This is only true if you agree with the opposite as well: As long as Israel is entirely surrounded by Arab League or countries doing their bidding, it will remain a fortress under siege, unless the Arab world goes through serious reform and atops being brutal opressive regimes.
Otherwise, you're a hypocrite.
You do realize that Israel has access to the Mediterranian and Egypt is factually an ally of Israel since decades now? Also Israel has functional airports. Israel has free access to move goods by air, sea and partially by land and for people to travel by air, land and sea. I find Israeli products in supermarkets in Europe, from household appliances to produce.
I fail to see, what point you are trying to make. The situation in Israel is nothing like the situation in Gaza.
Ah yes Egypt, Israel's best friend! Just like Pakistan and India, Greece and Turkey or Argentina and UK. Just because they signed a peace deal, it doesn't mean they are allies. The following day, after the Hamas attacks, an Egyptian police officer shot at Israeli tourists in Alexandria and killed two Israelis and their Egyptian guide. Anti-Semitism is rife in the region.
Just because Israelis can fly or use the ports, doesn't mean that they are not under constant dread - my analysis still stands.
The day Israel declared independence Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and volunteer corps from the Arab League ("Holy war army" and "Arab libertarian army" which had an insignia of the star of David with a dagger piercing it) attacked. This was fresh after Palestinian leaders met with Hitler in 1941 and the holocaust. They also saw that all the other neighbouring countries that declared independence in the region, including the ones from historical Palestine who took land from the Palestinian people, like Lebanon, Syria and Transjordan never got attacked or criticised. From Israel's point of view it was because they are Jews and the Arabs want another holocaust.
I would love to see the settlements in the West Bank dissolved, but it will never happen while the Arab (and Persian) world is still very much antisemitic and wants all the Israelis dead or "gone". The West Bank and Golan Heights offer strategic depth and security to Israel, and they will never leave. And they are willing to become the next North Korea if they have to, but at least they will be alive.
Now you don't have to agree with any of this. But those are "facts" for the Israelis. For them it's an existential crisis. The only way to reform Israel is also to reform the Arab world. Otherwise it's just a race to the bottom - both sides will elect more and more extremists.
Just because they signed a peace deal, it doesnβt mean they are allies
No it doesnt. It is more the fact, that Egypt receives generous military aid from the US for continued cooperation and works together with Israel on many issues, such as control of the Rafah crossing into Gaza.
The following day, after the Hamas attacks, an Egyptian police officer shot at Israeli tourists in Alexandria and killed two Israelis and their Egyptian guide
And German policemen regularly are caught making "jokes" about the holocaust, celebrating Hitlers birthday and other typical Nazi shit. Still Germany as a state considers itself an ally of Israel and works together with Israel as closely as possible.
This was fresh after Palestinian leaders met with Hitler in 1941
So 75 years ago. Again taking Germany as an example, by this logic mere six years ago, Germany was practically still Hitler.
Now you donβt have to agree with any of this. But those are βfactsβ for the Israelis. For them itβs an existential crisis. The only way to reform Israel is also to reform the Arab world. Otherwise itβs just a race to the bottom - both sides will elect more and more extremists.
Many Arab countries including Saudi Arabia have been looking to strengthen ties with Israel recently. Before Yitzhak Rabin was murdered in 1995 by a member of the same extremist-right ideology that is now governing Israel, there was great progress made towards finding a peaceful solution. It was the same right wing extremism, stemming from Israel that sabotaged a peaceful solution back than and continues to sabotage a peaceful solution now in favor of more violence and more crimes against the Palestinians.
And to show just how fucked in the head Likud was back then and is today even more so, they depicted Rabin as Hitler in their protests against the Oslo accords. Israel has the power to bring peace, if they had any interest. But they choose to let nationalists and fascists govern and commit the most heinous crimes.
100%. A upvote is simply not enough!
Yeah, but you shouldn't release people before they're re-socialized either. Gaza needs an occupying force for the same reason my home country needed one in 1945: Way too many fascist in the population.
Some some survey data:
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And of course there's the fact that 2013 at least 59% of Palestinians were in favor of executing apostates (i.e. murdering people who cease to be Muslim).
That said, of course there needs to be a positive economic development. Just like there was in Germany under occupation.
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That's idea I guess: why take the responsability if not to make changes? Would be senseless otherwise.
It makes sense but it is also not just impossible but begging for a world power to step in and impose themselves. How would an union already incapable of helping Ukraine and dealing with internal turmoil in each of their countries suddenly project itself between two groups that want to kill each other and think they will be successful there. Hell, have you even thought about how Turkey and Hungary would react and try to exploit their own influence over such a protectorate?
The UK should be the protectorate there. They've got experience in the region. (/s)
Edit: added /s before someone takes it serious.
Residents of Blackpool and Luton would welcome this as it would give them a new opportunity to live somewhere better.
I see your /s
Probably a good point, before someone takes it serious. Then again, the German word would be "ausbaden" for it.
Yep, came here to comment on the fact that we donβt care what the EU thinks, we need a word from the experts!!!
Why is it impossible? The simplest possible way would be to hold new elections in Gaza for which Hamas do not run.
It would probably lead to a group identical to Hamas being elected, but it would be neither Israel nor Hamas.
What may be impossible is a government that's aligned with western governments, but that's not what is being asked for.
I thought I spent most of my comment explaining why. I think your last sentence illustrates it best - do you think western governments like the US and anyone not Von der Leyen would be ok with it?
project itself between two groups that want to kill each other and think they will be successful there.
Because Israel wouldn't attack them and the other group won't have many weapons left when the IDF is finished with them. Obviously it won't be the EU alone as it would be seen as too one sided (well Ireland maybe not), but let's not forget that we're talking about a 360kmΒ² area with less than 2 million people here. This isn't a huge landlocked mountain country like Afghanistan, it's a tiny strip of desert with a modern harbor in walking distance. For reference you can look at the manpower KFOR and similar missions have.
It's not going to be easy to get political approval but a UN mission would almost certainly be able to keep the peace there.
It's better than just hoping Israel works it out, but it's still unworkable. Israel won't accept it. Hamas won't accept it. The US won't accept it. Iran won't accept it. Russia won't accept it. Whoever would be left doing it would get attacked from all sides, from within, and all while getting accused of imperialism from outside. I don't think a UN peacekeeping mission in territory where conflict is being fueled by the billions from all sides is workable, and if anything, it will attract the attention world powers who say they can only so they can station their bases closer to where their black markets are. It's still just my opinion, but reality will have to convince me on this one.
Hamas wonβt accept it.
That's a pro not a con. Obviously any international peacekeeping mission's main objective would be to wipe out Hamas completely. The key is to make it easier for Palestinians to support their liberation from that regime that it would be if the - unfortunately necessary - occupying solders were Israeli.
All the other main groups might be willing to negotiate a peace deal. Hamas (and a few smaller similar groups) are what needs to purged to make that happen.
Seems like theyre starting to go in a sane direction
Fuckin A man.
It should've been Egypt, but they don't want to.
I don't think they have the capabilities is my guess. It's understandable they don't want to, it's gonna be dangerous af. Politically speaking a UN Occupation and Peace Force would be the best way forward. Best from a country that is far away. China is not a bad contender. They have the resources and could gain valuable trade posts as well as prove their value as a world power they so desperately want to be. Philippines might also not be a bad choice they already have experience in UN Missions in Africa. Other choices could be a lot of states that have no geographical connection and don't belong to the "west" to avoid it seeming like some (post) imperialistic occupation.
Israel would probably be fine with Egypt but there's not much love left between Egyptians and Palestinians, and Egypt has its own shit to deal with in more than one way. The US is problematic for the same kind of reason: Palestinian distrust.
What could actually work is Germany, or more generally speaking a EU contingent under German command: Europe provides just over 50% of the total aid to Palestine and Palestinians know that, 20% from Arab countries, 11% from the US. (Providing aid to Palestinians is our favourite way to tell Israel's right wing to fucking cut it out).
All that hinges on Netanyahu and his Kahanites getting ousted, though, there can't be anything benefitting a peace process while von Papen and his fascists are in power as their power depends on conflict. Poll-wise it's looking good.
What could actually work is Germany, or more generally speaking a EU contingent under German command
Why would Germany and the EU ever agree to this? What they get is an impossible mission in a deeply troubled area and all the blame for every ill that will ever befall it in the future.
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European Forces occupying the middle east gives of hard imperialistic taste. Also seeing how the EU and Germany are so close to the US militarily this could just be seen again as a western power struggle where US proxies are put in place. No what is needed is a country that is non aligned to neither the west nor the middle east.
It's like 400km from the nearest EU state to Gaza, running a ferry line from Limassol not just to Ashod but also Gaza would be trivial, the whole of the EU is a post-imperial project, tons of Palestinians live in the EU and will be more than willing to help building up the region and you want to bring in, who, the Chinese?
US proxies
Who, the Philippines? Europe isn't a proxy of the US.
As to "neutrality": Europe has way better relations with the Arab and Muslim world than the US, they know where we stand on issues such as settlements. You could just as well see it as a wedge to get the US out of the region. Remember when Trump proposed making Jerusalem the capital of Israel?
German and Jews , again? Noooo
Whoever administers the Gaza strip, has to be neutral, or at least acceptable to the government of Israel. Egypt has a complex history with the government of Israel, and Israel probably doesn't want Egyptian listening posts inside of their territory.
Egypt warned Israel about this attack. Egypt is not an enemy of Israel and hasn't been for a long time. Also >inside of their territory. Since when is Gaza part of Israel's territory?? Pretty biased language there.
They control the territory militarily, it's defacto Israeli territory. I don't wish it to be so, but it is.
From a Military perspective intentions don't matter, only capabilities. Egypt is a theater competitor, it would be foolish to give them more military capabilities.
Oh I didn't know the Golan Heights were basically Austrian Territory when they controlled during their UN Mandate. See how stupid that sounds? If a peace force would move in the IDF would obviously not be in military control anymore there.
A theater competitor for what theater? The Yom Kippur War was 50 years ago.
The Austrians would be foolish not to collect intelligence where their troops were deployed. It's about capabilities. A military presence is a risk, and it's part of the political calculus.
I'm happy to debate with you but I ask that you not make personal attacks (calling me stupid) when we both have useful perspectives to contribute to the conversation.
At least Egypt doesn't officially deny the Israel's right to exist. That's good enough.
Not really good enough.
Inside of the borders of Israel, they are going to have security concerns, and they are not going to want foreign militaries to collect intelligence, to base weapons, to put them in a strategic disadvantage.
If the UN is going to police the area, there's going to be a long negotiation with Israel to determine which countries they find "acceptable" to be the peacekeeping force.
Maybe a joint international task group, UN backed?
Either that or Portugal
Wow straight to defending the abuser...ok.
I'm not making any pro apartheid or pro-colonial statements, I'm trying to illustrate a political and military calculus that would be used if peacekeeping forces were to be deployed.
I imagine that it'll be a political mess for whoever winds up with it.
lol, fucking european strawman
Gaza was given to Arabs for self rule and determination in 2005, all Jews left Gaza, even Jewish graveyards were dug up and moved, it was theirs to do with as they liked.
They've spent the last 18 years making into a terrorist Disneyland with a dozen Islamofascist terrorist organizations with the stated goal of killing Jews and destroying the state of Israel, they've fired hundreds of thousands of missiles into Israel indiscriminately targeting civilians, and launched countless cross borders attacks against Jewish civilians, including one that caused the largest loss of Jewish life in any single day, anywhere, since the Holocaust on October 7th.
They were given Gaza to live in freedom and self determination, they used it to kill Jews. They were warned. They chose to ignore the warnings.
These acts of terrorism were perpetrated by the entire Gazan community, they voted for Hamas, and allowed Hamas to rule their government for the last 17 years, Hamas and all the other Islamic terrorists in Gaza are not outsiders, they were born in Gaza of Gazans, they were raised in Gaza, they were educated in Gaza, they married and had children of their own in Gaza, their Parents, teachers, mosques, hospitals, are all in Gaza, from which they use to hid and store weapons to attack Jews, Hamas, PIJ and all the other Islamic terrorist in Gaza ARE Gaza, there has been no uprising in Gaza, there have only been attacks on Israel. This is what Gazans have supported and sacrificed for in every way they possibly could.
And now it's here. I do hope they enjoy what they've worked generationaly to achieve.
There will be no ceasefire this time.
Am YIsrael Chai
Well, you haven't gotten banned from feddit.de yet, so keep working on it with your copy and pastes.
https://mander.xyz/modlog?page=1&actionType=ModBanFromCommunity&userId=1568268
Fucker is a boot licking fascist with Johnny Ramone as his avatar.
He will find his ban.
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Correct.
Palestine should be allowed to exist without needing a Star Wars level rebel terrorist group to rage against Israel's cruelty.
Fuck Hamas, but they only exist because of Israel.
Now the only question is if we can get that genie back in the bottle if we correct our mistake, stop funding Israel, and let them fade away into dust.
πΊπΈπΊπΈπΊπΈ 51st state, FUCK YEAH. πΊπΈπΊπΈπΊπΈ
Or how about we give it to Russia in exchange for Crimea and rest of Ukraine's things.
Or give it to the Inuits? They might like a little warmer environment.
Move whole of Brussels (landmass included) there, making it the new EU headquarters?
Make it the first country run completely by AI? (seriously speaking, this would probably work way better than what has been tried before)
ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES
Bro.
Sounds like you have decent thoughts.
Why are you a cunt?
Did reddit hurt you?
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