this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2023
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Memes

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Post memes here.

A meme is an idea, behavior, or style that spreads by means of imitation from person to person within a culture and often carries symbolic meaning representing a particular phenomenon or theme.

An Internet meme or meme, is a cultural item that is spread via the Internet, often through social media platforms. The name is by the concept of memes proposed by Richard Dawkins in 1972. Internet memes can take various forms, such as images, videos, GIFs, and various other viral sensations.


Laittakaa meemejä tänne.

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[–] schnokobaer@feddit.de 105 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Loads of people love to pretend an NPP is just a hut with a magic gem inside delivering an endless amount of power for free. In reality they are huge, highly complex, high-security facilities that take decades and billions to build and need to be operated and maintained by loads of highly trained staff in 24/7 shift operations. This isn't to downplay their merit of providing CO2 emission free power, but for the love of god please appreciate the enormous effort and expense this is achieved with, especially when comparing it to renewables.

[–] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 42 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's almost like many things operate exactly like that but don't have people spreading disinformation or fearmongering to the point where people are so pants shittingly terrified of them they won't even consider it.

[–] TheBaldFox@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah, fossil fuel companies have spent the last 70 years propagandizing against nuclear because it's their largest threat.

[–] Knusper@feddit.de 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, but hopefully you have no trouble believing that simultaneously, nuclear power companies and governments wanting to use nuclear, despite the risks, have been propagandizing for nuclear.

Pro-nuclear folks are often completely unaccepting of there being risks and externalized costs, which feels to me like they're subject to propaganda (notwithstanding that I'm likely subject to different propaganda).

[–] azertyfun@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago

Nuclear power companies are rare, and badly funded. Most civilian nuclear programs are/were state-sponsored. Throughout the cold war, the main financial driver was a need for enriched plutonium and uranium for obvious applications.

Now that we have been (mostly) in an era of nuclear deproliferation for over 30 years, there is little to no money behind nuclear lobbying (though nuclear-armed powers are much less likely to scale back civilian nuclear production, they also don't have a military need to increase it). Weapons programs aside, "Big Atom" does not exist (unlike Big Oil or Big Coal who have billions of dollars to spend on lobbying annually).
Countries like Belgium or Germany even shuttered perfectly serviceable and economically viable NPP on ideological grounds FFS.

Now green field nuclear might not be a sound investment anymore (arguable, and depending on unreliable predictions about our future ability to do grid-scale battery storage to overcome intermittency issues as well as our willingness to rely on fossil gas instead).
But as someone living in a country whose nuclear program got fucked by stupid panicky rhetoric, I can tell you from experience that until the energy crisis of last year, "nuclear good" was a fringe "right wing" opinion held almost exclusively by people for who economics matters more than ecology (because traditional ecologists truly believe that nuclear waste is always worse than GHG emissions).

Yoyoing gas prices and the threat of an infrastructure collapse recently brought nuclear back into a more mainstream appeal, but unfortunately far too late to seriously consider building new NPPs.

[–] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago

Not quite. They initially did, but these days they fund the pro-nuclear groups more because it causes discussion between the pro-nuclear groups and the pro-renewables groups. This means nothing of substance really gets done. Moreover, they prefer nuclear over renewables because nuclear takes a lot longer to build. They don't mind another 15-20 years of fossil fuels that a nuclear-heavy strategy gives them, whereas renewables can be deployed right now which hurts their bottom line more.

[–] Rolder@reddthat.com 26 points 1 year ago

From what I understand, the costs and time needed to build a reactor would be far less if the constructions crews actually had experience building them.

[–] ReeferPirate@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago

Hell yeah they bring high quality jobs as well as clean power

[–] gummybootpiloot@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Things that don't exist yet aren't a solution for problems we have now.

It's not like we could now just build a thorium reactor that makes economic sense without decades of serious prototyping. And by that time we might have found that there are more pbolems with it than we thought.

[–] wombatula@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] agarorn@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

If the TMSR-LF1 proves successful, China plans to build a reactor with a capacity of 373 MWt by 2030.

Not sure which unit MWt is. Anyway, let's see how far they are in 7 years.

[–] gummybootpiloot@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Strange source aside I've been hearing were on the edge of a breakthrough for thorium reactors and cold fusion for 40 years now.

If China had it working already then we would have heard it a lot louder from them.

[–] andrewth09@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don't forget about the environment cost of extracting unprocessed uranium ore.

[–] winterayars@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Unfortunately renewables have nasty costs like this of their own.

[–] andrewth09@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Solar panels require a specific grade of silicone as a rare(ish) raw material input that requires extraction and heavy processing. Wind turbines don't really use anything that is not readily available (steel, aluminum, fiber glass, etc.)

The technology to recycle solar panels still needs to be developed. The technology to recycle solar panel blades exists, but has not scaled up yet.

I'm not saying solar/wind have no material cost. I am saying the process for refining uranium requires extracting a lot of uranium ore.

[–] winterayars@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

You don't actually need that much uranium though. Yeah it's a big operation, but that stuff goes a long way.

Even wind power needs rare earth elements like neodymium and dysprosium, which pretty much only come from China and the mining operations there are kind of horror shows.

[–] mjhelto@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sighs in thorium LFTR reactor noises.

[–] HorriblePerson@feddit.nl 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That technology is nowhere near mature enough to provide a solution to the mentioned problems in the next decade or two.

[–] mjhelto@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Well of course not, now. I never said it would fix the now problems we face. Had we started in the 1950s, or even the 70s, the impact of climate change would have been negligible and likely mitigated entirely by changes to society that we can't possibly speculate given our current world. Unfortunately, money and greed played yet another part in destroying our futures by those who won't be around to see what they've done or simply don't care.

[–] silver13@feddit.de 41 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Sure, let's pay private corporation billions in subsidies by handling their waste and have more centralisied and expensive energy production. Oh and trade dependencies due to uranium

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Canada and Australia are notoriously unreliable trade partners. (/s)

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[–] marcos@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Hum... Try sorting it by price.

[–] Krono@lemmy.today 28 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Is price the only concern? Seems like too narrow of a focus.

Maybe try sorting by "lifespan", as nuclear facilities last 3-4x longer.

You could try sorting by "crude oil usage", as each turbine needs 60 gallons of high synthetic oil to function, each needs an oil change every 6 months.

Would be interesting to sort by "birds killed" or "acres of habitat destroyed"

I'm not saying nuclear is necessarily better, that is a difficult calculation. But we got ourselves into this climate change disaster by short-sightedly "sorting by price". Perhaps spending more money for a long term investment would be more wise than always going with the cheapest option.

[–] zero_spelled_with_an_ecks@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I was going to shred you because nuclear plants also have turbines that rotate and need lubricant, but then I did a quick search and found an interesting article that interviewed someone from a nuclear power plant that claimed one oil change in 34 years. https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/15_5/lubricants-at-the-atomic-frontier/

[–] TheBaldFox@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, since there is no combustion there is no carbon deposition and thus the oil basically lasts forever. We just filter it and add occasionally to make up for leaks.

[–] Zron@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There’s no combustion in a wind turbine either, so why do they need changes more frequently?

[–] marcos@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Because of higher efficiency requirements and because the wind turbines have a much larger number of smaller moving parts.

The oil requirements of nuclear are all on the first construction, mining, and refining of the fuel. Very little is required at the operation of the reactor.

[–] jaschen@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Very likely heat. I think reactors use water to cool the oil.

[–] marcos@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Try price/year instead of lifespan.

But yeah, you can go with crud oil usage, birds killed and acres of habitat destroyed too. Those won't give you the result you are wanting to see.

It's not that nuclear is useless. But it's worse on almost every way. Yeah, that "almost" is important, but the meme is way out of line.

[–] theneverfox@pawb.social 2 points 1 year ago

It's not useless, and it's most certainly not worse in almost all ways - enriching the fuel and construction time/costs are all that make it fall apart.

Nuclear can be built near pretty much any water source without tainting it at all, it generates a huge amount of power with very little land usage, it lasts for a long time.

If we had time, I'd be all in on nuclear - but it takes almost a decade of build time... We need solutions a hell of a lot faster than that or we're all screwed anyways

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Nuclear powered wind farms, to combat natural cyclones with counter spinning cyclones intensively farmed

[–] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 17 points 1 year ago

I vote we blow radioactive material around with giant fans. That should solve some of our energy problems.

[–] mjhelto@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Thorium is abundant and a byproduct of rare earth mining. It's also what the moon is mostly made up of, so our energy requirements on the moon could use locally mined sources for power generation making moon bases much cheaper to operate.

A Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor, or LFTR, not only can't melt down, it can be smaller and require less staff to manage, requires no external cooling so it can be built anywhere, and cannot be used to make bombs. It's also not radioactive by itself.

In the 1940s, both uranium and thorium were looked at as potential fuels for nuclear energy, but you can't make bombs with thorium, so the US went with uranium. LFTRs create no nuclear waste, can be used to burn existing nuclear waste created by other nuclear energy processes, extracting more energy from our giant stockpile of unusable nuclear waste, and if the plant loses power, which is only needed to keep a frozen plug frozen, excess fuel melts and the empties into a reserve tank. Most rare earth mining companies don't even know what to do with the thorium they mine, so they store/stockpile it in hopes of future uses.

It simply baffles my mind that this isn't even on the table for potential, near limitless energy generation in addition to, or in replacement of, wind and solar green energy. The nuclear fearmongering has tainted the idea of safe nuclear power generation to the point that I suspect many of you have never heard of it. We literally have the answer to energy needs for the entire world, using greener production, but since it's new and would require billions to fund and start, it hasn't been considered until recently.

If billionaires really wanted to help humanity, rather than simply saying so for PR and launching their cars into space or creating flamethrowers, this is an investment that, while not as quick to return gains, would be lucrative, forward thinking, and beneficial enough to help all of humanity and this planet. And they could have started in the 50s when the government played around with a test reactor for proof of concept and proved it worked. Imagine a timeline where capitalism and greed weren't a thing and climate change wasn't even an utterance outside of explaining why Venus is so fucking hot!

[–] Black616Angel@feddit.de 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

and cannot be used to make bombs

That is not true. Scientist even argue if LFTRs are a powerful way to create Uranium233.

LFTRs create no nuclear waste

Also not correct. Where did you get your facts from?

[–] mjhelto@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

That is not true. Scientist even argue if LFTRs are a powerful way to create Uranium233.

I cannot find information online about scientists saying anything of the sort, but I don't feel like logging into my work VPN to access the pay-walled articles that might have that info. The amount of time required to get enough material for any significant bomb, at least with the information I can find, makes it impractical for that purpose so I stand by my statement.

Also not correct. Where did you get your facts from?

I thought about including little to no waste in there, but opted to put none, because yes, while it still creates some waste, it's significantly less waste, that becomes safe after a few hundred years compared to the several thousands of years that current nuclear waste takes to become safe.

My message is still correct, which I suspect is why you only selected two sections from the entire thing -- where I over-generalized a statement of fact -- as arguments to negate the entirety of my reply.

Current NPP are extremely, almost comically inefficient and wasteful. The material is harder to get, harder to handle, less fuel-dense, and the waste produced creates a hazard that spans hundreds of human lifetimes. We've known about thorium for power generation for decades, but greed and "national security" prevented us from acting on it. Coupled with the confusion and misrepresentation of nuclear power as "dangerous" in the eyes of the general public, and we're now on a collision course with a potential wasteland of a planet.

But hey, don't let a little mistype or over-generalization stop us from knowing options that have largely been withheld or lumped in with more dangerous forms of the same power generation.

[–] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 year ago

I find it refreshing to see a bunch of realistic cost comparisons here whereas on Reddit, anti-nuclear voices get downvoted for being “outdated”.

[–] sxan@midwest.social 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I see you everywhere. I'm your secret friend. Ok, not so much a "secret" friend... stalker! That's the word!

Anyway, can you crosspost this to one (or more) of

I haint giffured out xposting on Lemmy, or if it's even a thing.

They'd probably appreciate it.

[–] wombatula@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

With the effort you put into this post, you could have just done that posting yourself.

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Hey, so that was you hiding behind the bushes!

I haven't played Factorio and wouldn't want to be a poser, but you're welcome to repost or cross post wherever! I didn't make this one.

[–] platypode@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago

Nuclear power isn't renewable. Joule for joule, our reserves of nuclear fuel and petroleum are comparable. It's a decent bandaid, but between the finite fuel supply and the nuclear waste problem it's hardly the future and should be used as sparingly as needed to get us off of oil and onto renewables.

[–] balderdash9@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 year ago

clever girl

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