Ask Lemmy

Your parents are right. It is absolutely a skill that you should learn. The 'times have changed' crowd just haven't stepped up to the new level of difficulty.

It is not wrong to strike up a conversation with a stranger so long as the setting is appropriate and you pick up on the clues they give on whether the interaction is welcome or not. That is the skill you're learning.

Whether it is technically 'necessary' is debatable, but it is antisocial to flat out avoid doing so by definition.

You're not wrong, but you've got a bit of an extreme take on it. I think you and your parents may have different thoughts on what it means to "approach" a woman though. I'm going to use "flirt" to refer to talking to a woman with intent of seeing if they would make a good partner for you and just "talk" to indicate just being friendly with someone.

it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman who doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers

No, it's fine to talk to strangers of any gender in public. Approaching them and flirting with them is not. As long as you can roughly understand when you're making someone uncomfortable and stop it, you're not going to come off as a creep/predator. Stuck in a lineup in a store? Chat with someone beside you, maybe commiserate about how long the line is. If you want to flirt with them, then yes the situations you mentioned are definitely the places to do that.

(sort of an aside: whether "meeting friends of friends" is an appropriate situation to flirt with someone you just met is still situation dependent)

They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner.

Approaching women in random public spaces with the intent of finding a partner is also a pretty bad idea. While it could work, it's definitely creep/predator behaviour so I avoid it. It's very likely to make them uncomfortable, since they're just trying to do their thing not get hit on. This can easily be harassment, though I'm on the fence on whether it's always harassment.

Personally I like to flip the genders on situations like this and ask if I'd want to be the other person in this situation. It's worth keeping in mind that woman have way more statistical reasons to be weary/wary of any interaction with men, though. Regardless, e.g. if some woman was beside me in line and started chatting with me, I'd be fine with it. If some woman came up to me and complimented my shirt, I'd be fine with it. If some woman came up to me, complimented my shirt, and then asked for my number I'd be weirded out (I don't know you, lady). If some woman came up to me and asked me to take out my earbuds to commiserate about how long the line is, I'd be annoyed that I'm missing my music.

So, this is one of the unfortunate traps of our time, especially if you live in a place with car dependent sprawl. Women don't want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc), and, really, nobody does. You want to work at work, and you want to do your business and go home otherwise. This goes doubly or triply so for complete strangers. There's really no third places (as they're called) left, where people go for the express purpose of being social and together. That's what's missing here. As someone else said, you are, unfortunately, both a little right.

It's particularly bad in places like the US that have car dependent sprawl because

• cities often have had their zoning ordinances weaponized by NIMBYs, and it's probably outright illegal to have a small cafe or shop in your neighborhood, or they're required to have some outrageous parking minimum or something like that.

• driving sucks more than you may be aware of while you're doing it. If you have to get into your car to go to the grocery, you don't want to make five stops at smaller grocers throughout the week; you'd rather just make one big stop at the big box mart and just go tf home. If you want to stop at a cafe, well, just swing through the starbucks drive through so you don't have to be bothered with getting out.

Well, chances are that most of your interactions at chain businesses and stores are anonymous, so you're not meeting other people in your community there, you're not creating any bonds or relationships there, you're doing your business and getting out, which, frankly, is what they want. You're especially not making any friends in the drive thru line. For nearly seventy years now, we've built our cities to be homes to cars, not people, and it's bearing fruit in the form of the loneliness epidemic.

My advice to you would be to go out of your way to find situations where people are getting together for the purpose of being social or having fun. Look for classes put on by your local city parks, go check your local library's bulletin board for events, check social media communities for your nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly. If you're religious, seek out some religious institutions that you find palatable.

that OP actually cares enough about other people to think this over means he's probably more tolerable than most men in my life

when talking to strangers, really good rule to follow is "don't create a situation for somebody who isn't completely free to leave" as in, they can exit the situation or ignore you without any consequences to their job/ night out/ errands/ enjoyment of shared space

most of the rest of the context usually sorts itself out from there, right?

Personally I think everyone is wrong here, but none of it in a mean or jerky way, just in perspective .

For your parents, it's definitely a different vibe now, we need to be more socially conscious about walking up to a woman, we should understand that that is inherently a dangerous place for a woman and she is likely on her guard.

That being said, you shouldn't be afraid to speak to women either, that is likely just as bad. Women are just people, they have like and dislikes, and you should talk to them the same way you would anyone.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that the days of pickup lines and sauntering over are gone. But there's absolutely nothing wrong striking up a conversation either, and in fact I encourage it. Notice things, maybe they're wearing a band T-shirt of a band you like, maybe they have a cool sticker on their phone or laptop, show interest. Don't be afraid of them.

When one reads the room (or the… sidewalk? the coffee shop?), is clever, and well groomed, and all that…

It’s absolutely possible to speak to strangers in public regardless of whether they’re male or female or whatever. Furthermore, sometimes the immediate response is a positive one instead of a polite but obviously disinterested one.

But oh my GOODNESS do we have to be careful not to be an undue burden on others! (Note some scenarios can’t be helped—people who are DEATHLY afraid of ANYONE talking to them ever are in a bad spot, sorry to those folks, but you may have to ignore a polite sentence from me before I apologize/quickly move on.)

I don’t have good cold approach tips for random places in public, but in a nightclub, can be natural to follow this flow:

• comment on venue
• comment on artist
• comment on the person (the person herself)

Maybe it’s adaptable outside the clurb too.

Do know it definitely helps out there if she has a dog. Only speaking to people when there’s a genuinely natural conversation starter, like a cute dog, is probably pretty safe. Maybe “Whoh did you get that hat from <boutique down the street?>” when you’re actually curious. Curiosity shines through, as does your lack of need for a specific outcome, and can lead to good engagement from someone you’ve made comfortable and perhaps who’s chuffed to have had their fancy accessory complimented. (‘Oh actually my friend made it!’ = nice)

And maybe you’re already walking away as you’re talking, just making it so obvious how little a threat you are, how unlikely you are to be aggressive.

We’re allowed to “be excellent to each other” and we’re allowed to get rejected. Nothing like a good rejection, LOVE knowing I tried. Finally hey, some of earth’s 8 billion inhabitants were married in modern times solely thanks to the guy reasonably approaching a stranger, and none of us could tell his wife she was wrong not to reject him (or that he was a jerk for saying hi).

YOU GOT THIS!

Kindly,

brb

I think a lot of people aren't really getting what you mean.

it's not about not interacting with women at all but not hitting on them like a creep out of nowhere. The contexts of how relationships form have absolutely changed, and your parents' expectations don't match. They may as well tell you to look women in the eye, give them a firm handshake and propose a relationship.

So long as you're still directing expressing attraction to people in the places they want them, you're really not doing anything wrong here.

I approached someone before the pan and asked for her number. She provided it and while it didn’t go anywhere, she complimented me for doing a real-life approach. But I’m twice your age, so I’d go with what peers your age tell you. The rules could be completely different.

Context matters a lot, which means you need to put yourself out there in the right context to meet someone. Examples: trivia night at the local bar, or a book club, or a local live music show. Most women aren't gonna be interested if you approach them while they're just living their lives grocery shopping or at the gym* or something - that's not a social context. (*Unless you're regulars at the gym and run into each other and chitchat all the time, but I'm assuming you're not in that kind of situation.)

Once you're in the right context, and you see a woman you're interested in, start by very casually talking to her, and keep an eye out for signs of interest (e.g., turning in their seat toward you which indicates they're giving the conversation real attention, or moving the conversation forward by making jokes or asking follow-up questions) or disinterest (e.g., one word answers with no follow-up engagement, turning their body away from you, mentioning a boyfriend). If you see signs of disinterest, just stop and let her be. But if you see signs of interest, continue the conversation. Don't be too needy, don't come on too strong, let the conversation breathe. And for godsake don't buy her drinks, it's cheesy and puts too much pressure on a new situation. Especially don't buy her a drink without even asking her first, it's pushy and I can't speak for all women, but I fucking hate that. Ask her about herself, for example her interests. Try to get a gauge on whether you're attracted to her on more than a physical level. If you have nothing in common, or you think she's boring or annoying, there's no sense in moving forward. But if there seems to be commonality and interest, keep the conversation going! If one of you is leaving, tell her you're glad you ran into her that night and ask if you can give her your number (or email address or social media, whatever young people do, I'm middle-aged so I don't know). But the important thing is that you're offering her something rather than asking her for something. This means she can say no, or if she says yes, she still has the choice on whether or not to follow up with you. It puts the control in her hands which can make her feel more safe.

Good luck, I hear it's rough out there for folks your age.

You are wrong. Yeah times have changed, but not so much that you can't just fucking talk to someone. Say hi, strike up a conversation, whatever, and trust that anyone who doesn't want to talk will say so. The important thing when that happens is to listen to them and leave them alone.

Think carefully about the pressures of the situation. For example, a smile is usually good, unless they are on a job where they are made to smile by their employer.

Essentially, you are right that its inappropriate to approach somebody without business. But getting to know somebody is legitimate business.

You are also sort of right that it has to be an appropriate context for chatting. But it doesnt have to be explicit. If you cross paths in a public place, 1 critical factor is how quickly you are both moving. If she is hurrying, not good. If she is relaxed, that is good.

Pay attention to the other person. The other person is the unknown factor, so its alright to focus on understanding their perspective. And its never as simple as interested/not interested. Empathy is clutch here.

Attention is an offer. Some people, especially from sick cultures, can be really mean when they reject an offer. Dont take that personally, its really about how disappointed they are with what they themselves receive.

I'll make idle conversation with anyone. Some people are down some aren't. I'm rarely trying for a date or romance. I just see where the conversation goes, sometimes to a date or romance.

I like to talk to a room. i.e. i watch social cues to find an "in" then i try to start a public conversation?

Women don't want to be approached in public.