this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2025
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[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 75 points 1 day ago (19 children)

"Ask Claude to add 36 and 59 and the model will go through a series of odd steps, including first adding a selection of approximate values (add 40ish and 60ish, add 57ish and 36ish). Towards the end of its process, it comes up with the value 92ish. Meanwhile, another sequence of steps focuses on the last digits, 6 and 9, and determines that the answer must end in a 5. Putting that together with 92ish gives the correct answer of 95," the MIT article explains."

That is precisrly how I do math. Feel a little targeted that they called this odd.

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[–] harryprayiv@infosec.pub 177 points 1 day ago (11 children)

To understand what's actually happening, Anthropic's researchers developed a new technique, called circuit tracing, to track the decision-making processes inside a large language model step-by-step. They then applied it to their own Claude 3.5 Haiku LLM.

Anthropic says its approach was inspired by the brain scanning techniques used in neuroscience and can identify components of the model that are active at different times. In other words, it's a little like a brain scanner spotting which parts of the brain are firing during a cognitive process.

This is why LLMs are so patchy at math. (Image credit: Anthropic)

Anthropic made lots of intriguing discoveries using this approach, not least of which is why LLMs are so terrible at basic mathematics. "Ask Claude to add 36 and 59 and the model will go through a series of odd steps, including first adding a selection of approximate values (add 40ish and 60ish, add 57ish and 36ish). Towards the end of its process, it comes up with the value 92ish. Meanwhile, another sequence of steps focuses on the last digits, 6 and 9, and determines that the answer must end in a 5. Putting that together with 92ish gives the correct answer of 95," the MIT article explains.

But here's the really funky bit. If you ask Claude how it got the correct answer of 95, it will apparently tell you, "I added the ones (6+9=15), carried the 1, then added the 10s (3+5+1=9), resulting in 95." But that actually only reflects common answers in its training data as to how the sum might be completed, as opposed to what it actually did.

In other words, not only does the model use a very, very odd method to do the maths, you can't trust its explanations as to what it has just done. That's significant and shows that model outputs can not be relied upon when designing guardrails for AI. Their internal workings need to be understood, too.

Another very surprising outcome of the research is the discovery that these LLMs do not, as is widely assumed, operate by merely predicting the next word. By tracing how Claude generated rhyming couplets, Anthropic found that it chose the rhyming word at the end of verses first, then filled in the rest of the line.

"The planning thing in poems blew me away," says Batson. "Instead of at the very last minute trying to make the rhyme make sense, it knows where it’s going."

Anthropic discovered that their Claude LLM didn't just predict the next word. (Image credit: Anthropic)

Anthropic also found, among other things, that Claude "sometimes thinks in a conceptual space that is shared between languages, suggesting it has a kind of universal 'language of thought'."

Anywho, there's apparently a long way to go with this research. According to Anthropic, "it currently takes a few hours of human effort to understand the circuits we see, even on prompts with only tens of words." And the research doesn't explain how the structures inside LLMs are formed in the first place.

But it has shone a light on at least some parts of how these oddly mysterious AI beings—which we have created but don't understand—actually work. And that has to be a good thing.

[–] hikaru755@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

"The planning thing in poems blew me away," says Batson. "Instead of at the very last minute trying to make the rhyme make sense, it knows where it’s going."

How is this surprising, like, at all? LLMs predict only a single token at a time for their output, but to get the best results, of course it makes absolute sense to internally think ahead, come up with the full sentence you're gonna say, and then just output the next token necessary to continue that sentence. It's going to re-do that process for every single token which wastes a lot of energy, but for the quality of the results this is the best approach you can take, and that's something I felt was kinda obvious these models must be doing on one level or another.

I'd be interested to see if there are massive potentials for efficiency improvements by making the model able to access and reuse the "thinking" they have already done for previous tokens

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[–] MudMan@fedia.io 81 points 1 day ago (22 children)

Is that a weird method of doing math?

I mean, if you give me something borderline nontrivial like, say 72 times 13, I will definitely do some similar stuff. "Well it's more than 700 for sure, but it looks like less than a thousand. Three times seven is 21, so two hundred and ten, so it's probably in the 900s. Two times 13 is 26, so if you add that to the 910 it's probably 936, but I should check that in a calculator."

Do you guys not do that? Is that a me thing?

[–] Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

How I'd do it is basically

72 * (10+3)

(72 * 10) + (72 * 3)

(720) + (3*(70+2))

(720) + (210+6)

(720) + (216)

936

Basically I break the numbers apart into easier chunks and then add them together.

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[–] reev@sh.itjust.works 49 points 1 day ago (3 children)

I think what's wild about it is that it really is surprisingly similar to how we actually think. It's very different from how a computer (calculator) would calculate it.

So it's not a strange method for humans but that's what makes it so fascinating, no?

[–] PlexSheep@infosec.pub 2 points 23 hours ago

I mean neural networks are modeled after biological neurons/brains after all. Kind of makes sense...

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 25 points 1 day ago

That's what's fascinating about how it does language in general.

The article is interesting in both the ways in which things are similar and the ways they're different. The rough approximation thing isn't that weird, but obviously any human would have self-awareness of how they did it and not accidentally lie about the method, especially when both methods yield the same result. It's a weirdly effective, if accidental example of human-like reasoning versus human-like intelligence.

And, incidentally, of why AGI and/or ASI are probably much further away than the shills keep claiming.

[–] pulsewidth@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Yes, agreed. And calculators are essentially tabulators, and operate almost just like a skilled person using an abacus.

We shouldn't really be surprised because we designed these machines and programs based on our own human experiences and prior solutions to problems. It's still neat though.

[–] GamingChairModel@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago (2 children)

This is pretty normal, in my opinion. Every time people complain about common core arithmetic there are dozens of us who come out of the woodwork to argue that the concepts being taught are important for deeper understanding of math, beyond just rote memorization of pencil and paper algorithms.

[–] QuarterSwede@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago

The problem with common core math isn’t that rounding is inherently bad, it’s that you don’t start with that as a framework.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Rote memorization should be minimized in school curriculum

[–] futatorius@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

Memory can improve with training, and it's useful in a large number of contexts. My major beef with rote memorization in schools is that it's usually made to be excruciatingly boring. I'd say that's the bigger problem.

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I wouldn't even attempt that in my head.
I can't keep track of things and then recall them later for the final result.

[–] HereIAm@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Pen and paper maths I'm pretty decent at, but ask me to calculate anything in my head and it's anyone's guess if I remembered to carry the 1 or not. Ever since learning about aphantasia I'm wondering if the lack of being able to visually store values has something to do with it.

[–] futatorius@lemm.ee 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Ever since learning about aphantasia I’m wondering if the lack of being able to visually store values has something to do with it.

Here's some anecdotal evidence. Until I was 12 or 13, I could do absurdly complex arithmetical calculations in my head. My memory of it was of visualizing intermediate calculations as if they were on a screen in my head. I'd close my eyes to minimize distracting external stimuli. I'd get pocket money because my dad would get his friends to bet on whether I could correctly multiply two 7-digit phone numbers, and when I won, which I always did, he'd give the money to me. He had an old-school electromechanical calculator he'd use to check the results.

Neither of my parents and none of my many siblings had this ability.

I was able to use a similar visualization technique to memorize long passages of music and text. That stayed with me post-puberty, though again at a lesser extent. I've also been able to learn languages more quickly than most.

Once puberty kicked in, my ability to visualize declined significantly, though to compensate, I learned some mental arithmetics tricks that I still use now. I was able to get an MS in mathematics without much effort, since that relied on higher-level reasoning and not all that much on powerful memory or visualization. I didn't pursue a Ph.D. due to lack of money but I think I could have gotten one (though I despise academic politics).

So I think your comment about aphantasia is at least directionally correct, at least as applied to people. But there's little reason to assume LLMs would do things the same way a human mind does, though both might operate under some similar information-theoretic constraints that would cause convergent evolution.

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[–] pennomi@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Nah I do similar stuff. I think very few people actually trace their own lines of thought, so they probably don’t realize this is how it often works.

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[–] msage@programming.dev 5 points 1 day ago

My favourite part of the day: commenting LLMentalist under AI articles.

[–] kami@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Thanks for copypasting here. I wonder if the "prediction" is not as expected only in that case, when making rhymes. I also notice that its way of counting feels interestingly not too different from how I count when I need to come up fast with an approximate sum.

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[–] simple@lemm.ee 59 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Rather than read PCGamer talk about Anthropic's article you can just read it directly here. It's a good read.

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[–] hersh 36 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

But here’s the really funky bit. If you ask Claude how it got the correct answer of 95, it will apparently tell you, “I added the ones (6+9=15), carried the 1, then added the 10s (3+5+1=9), resulting in 95.” But that actually only reflects common answers in its training data as to how the sum might be completed, as opposed to what it actually did.

This is not surprising. LLMs are not designed to have any introspection capabilities.

Introspection could probably be tacked onto existing architectures in a few different ways, but as far as I know nobody's done it yet. It will be interesting to see how that might change LLM behavior.

[–] kshade@lemmy.world 4 points 23 hours ago

I'm surprised that they are surprised by this as well. What did they expect, and why? How much of this is written to imply LLMs - their business - are more advanced/capable than they actually are?

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[–] FunnyUsername@lemmy.world 37 points 1 day ago (1 children)

this is one of the most interesting things about Llms that i have ever read

[–] cm0002@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (17 children)

That bit about how it turns out they aren't actually just predicting the next word is crazy and kinda blows the whole "It's just a fancy text auto-complete" argument out of the water IMO

[–] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 40 points 1 day ago (6 children)

It really doesn't. You're just describing the "fancy" part of "fancy autocomplete." No one was ever really suggesting that they only predict the next word. If that was the case they would just be autocomplete, nothing fancy about it.

What's being conveyed by "fancy autocomplete" is that these models ultimately operate by combining the most statistically likely elements of their dataset, with some application of random noise. More noise creates more "creative" (meaning more random, less probable) outputs. They do not actually "think" as we understand thought. This can clearly be seen in the examples given in the article, especially to do with math. The model is throwing together elements that are statistically proximate to the prompt. It's not actually applying a structured, logical method the way humans can be taught to.

[–] FourWaveforms@lemm.ee 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Unfortunately, these articles are often written by people who don't know enough to realize they're missing important nuances.

[–] datalowe@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It also doesn't help that the AI companies deliberately use language to make their models seem more human-like and cogent. Saying that the model e.g. "thinks" in "conceptual spaces" is misleading imo. It abuses our innate tendency to anthropomorphize, which I guess is very fitting for a company with that name.

On this point I can highly recommend this open access and even language-wise accessible article: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5 (the authors also appear on an episode of the Better Offline podcast)

[–] FourWaveforms@lemm.ee 1 points 15 hours ago

I can't contemplate whether LLMs think until someone tells me what it means to think. It's too easy to rely on understanding the meaning of that word only through its typical use with other words.

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[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago (7 children)

Predicting the next word vs predicting a word in the middle and then predicting backwards are not hugely different things. It's still predicting parts of the passage based solely on other parts of the passage.

Compared to a human who forms an abstract thought and then translates that thought into words. Which words I use has little to do with which other words I've used except to make sure I'm following the rules of grammar.

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[–] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Another very surprising outcome of the research is the discovery that these LLMs do not, as is widely assumed, operate by merely predicting the next word. By tracing how Claude generated rhyming couplets, Anthropic found that it chose the rhyming word at the end of verses first, then filled in the rest of the line.

If the llm already knows the full sentence it's going to output from the first word it "guesses" I wonder if you could short circuit it and say just give the full sentence instead of doing a cycle for each word of the sentence, could maybe cut down on llm energy costs.

[–] angrystego@lemmy.world 5 points 22 hours ago

I don't think it knows the full sentence, it just doesn't search for the words in the order they will be in the sentence. It finds the end-words first to make the poem rhyme, than looks for the rest of the words. I do it this way as well just like many other people trying to create any kind of rhyming text.

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[–] El_Azulito@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

…Duh. 🤓

[–] Geometrinen_Gepardi@sopuli.xyz 21 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It's amazing that humans have coded a tool for which they have to afterwards write more tools for analyzing how it works.

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