Free will is an illusion.
this post was submitted on 16 Mar 2025
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Reminds me of the Epicurean Paradox:
You could replace "God" with "Parents" to the same effect.
But arguing that a parent is evil because they see a child committing an error, know it is an error, and decline to intercede doesn't rationally follow. If you helicopter over your kids and intercede every time they make mistakes, they never develop into independent and mature adults. You also induce a lot of anxiety, as you're constantly interposing yourself between the child's desires and actions without the ability to convey the wisdom of your decisions. So the kid sees you as the harmful force, rather than the thing you're seeking to avert.
So what's a Parent/God to do? Do you puppet your child, never letting them stray farther than the length of a string? Do you lock your child in a padded ceil and hand-feed them every day? Do you hardwire their programming, so they can't deviate from your design, acting exclusively on a divine instinct?
Is that really what we consider "Goodness"?
There is also the Calculation Problem to consider. A God-like intelligence might be able to observe far more than a human without being perfectly omniscient. Similarly, they might be able to calculate probabilities more quickly and accurately without being perfectly prescient. If a Parent/God knows most of the things but is not omniscient, does that mean they are unworthy of your attention or the reception of wisdom? At the same time, is it the duty of a Parent/God to restrict the actions of the others in their domain to the things they can calculate in advance? This brings us back to the idea of the Child Prisoner or Brainwashed Child. You're safe at the expense of any kind of growth or personal liberty. God treats you like a farmer treats a veal calf - perfectly unspoiled through inaction.
And finally, there is the problem of Entropy. A God who can foresee everything and recognizes that Evil is inevitable. Is such a God responsible for this Evil simply because it can perceive it? Is such a God responsible for this Evil simply because it cannot prevent it? Is this flaw in God's power a reason to reject it as a source of virtue?
Consider Odin hanging from Yggdrasil, his eye plucked out in pursuit of a way to prevent Ragnorak. He is not all-powerful. He is not-all knowing. He is routinely makes mistakes and even acts out of anger, lust, or petty vengeance. He is fundamentally flawed as dieties come. And yet his primary goal and function - to prevent the end of the world - seems noble enough to justifiably cultivate a religious following.
Parents cannot prevent evil and are not all powerful.
Parents aren't all powerful. But the Abrahamic god is (according to their faith) all powerful. So it could stop any war, any disease, any pain, ... but does not. Either it's not all powerful or not good. Choose. Or, as I think, doesn't exist.
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That is exactly true. Life is only about 3 things: food, reproduction and dealing with boredom. Humans add so many colours to that, that it looks like we do more than those 3 things so that's where you might see free will.
If you read the Bible with a purely objective mind and come away thinking God is the good guy in the story, I have some serious questions about your morality and ethics.
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I like to think of why people suffer or God allows it like this. Even if you don’t think there is a plan, 70 years on earth vs an infinity of bliss is a good deal.
I think of this too, and then I think God gave humans a brain to figure out what to do.
Cults and organised religion - name a surprisingly compatible combo.
I'm also sick of hearing people say, "God never gives you more than you can handle."
I know people who have been driven batshit insane by what God has given them.
Church dilemma - knowing the will of God vs affirming that God's ways are inscrutable, According to convenience
What’s the use of being god if every run-down schmuck with a two dollar prayer book can come along and fuck up your plan?
- George Carlin
I don’t think many Christians would actually argue for that first point tbh. It’s not something Biblically portrayed as one of God’s gifts. Free will is portrayed as something that was given conditionally, but taking from the tree of knowledge and specifically eating the fruit of knowledge is known as man’s first sin in the Bible.
I think it’s a bit of a metaphor for a parent wanting to shield their child from the harshness of reality, but as the sheltered child grows older they often want to know more about the outside world and in doing so become exposed to the cruelty. This was my own experience with religion growing up. A teacher of mine one day sat us down and pleaded the above with our class, as many of us grew to see through the veil of how reality looked.
In retrospect I think some things about the world make sense to not be told about, depending on one’s age. However, I think other things should never be hidden, have been hidden, or done in other cases.
Side note: I think the idea of God’s plan is for people to hold love for one another. Lots of people lose sight of what they are called to do and how they are to act though. They’re called to love their neighbor as their self, called to love their enemy, and called to forgive others for their transgressions. I personally think people are called to do good works in conjunction with holding faith, as people are called to act righteously in this life.
I don’t think many Christians would actually argue for that first point tbh.
Then truthfully, I don't think you've had this conversation with many christians. Every single one immediately defaults to that point when confronted with the horrors god would be responsible for if god is in control.
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Don't worry, they don't read the Bible, and especially don't read the old testament.
They believe they have god given freedom of action
Did god not have the power to give us free will without also giving us evil?
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Had the power but opted not to: god is himself some part evil
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Didn't have the power, did the best he could with the tools he had: god is not omnipotent.
Pick one.
Maybe god itself doesn't have free will and is only acting according to a proscribed set of fundamental laws.
That's the point - the christian god is presented as all powerful, all knowing, and all good. The existence of evil in our universe shows that to be a lie.
I think this is a really interesting read on the matter: https://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
Christianity has gone completely off the rails and isn't the answer, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a god.
Going by the Bible, it's both. He acted with malice and proved himself to not be omnipotent many times.
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Yup.
The teachings of Christianity don't make any fucking sense. (Unless you're willing to gaslight yourself for a lifetime.)
Too bad our entire society is based on this nonsense.
Agreed.
Now now, don't discount free reign to also gaslight others for a lifetime as well. And judge and shame others too. It's great for complete assholes.
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You have the freedom to choose God or face an eternity of unimaginable suffering.
No good god would make an unlasting punishment. if you have forever, then even Hitler, Dahmer would have enough time for a finite punishment. Even the worst people in the world don't deserve a unlasting punishment.
The Nicean Council excluded a bunch of books, and Jesus was Jewish. In kabbalah, you learn about reincarnation, and so why did people think Jesus and John were OT prophets? So karma isn't a punishment, but a teacher, you repeat lessons, which are scaffolded, until they are mastered. Well, why don't you remember past life lessons? Why aren't crib sheets allowed in exams? Is doing the right thing only for personal gain still the right thing? Then no one should be upset with billionaires for reversing dei. And Jesus said the whole law can be summed love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Not better than, not less than. And that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Also the fall of the morning star gave "the devil" the earth as his dominion. "Be in the world, not of it," and "be wise as serpents, innocent as doves," eg be neither boot nor doormat. Love you neighbor as yourself. Ha-Satan is the prosecutor, who freely comes and goes into heaven (where is the Kingdom?) who lists every reason (sin) you don't get to be there (schism of self). And a defending angel can list one redeeming quality and you're in. You passed that particular lesson set. Now you have a new set.
Also Jesus said he teaches in parables, don't take things so literally. Why wouldn't he want every student to understand? They're not on that lesson set, yet. Someone just learning division isn't ready for trig.
You make a great point about how we're not allowed to remember lessons. Wouldn't the world be more peaceful if everyone knew what lessons they had already learnt? Like say in one life someone insults someone with a disablity, the next life they're a person with the same disability and they remember the insults they said so they know how shitty they made that person feel? And in turn, would make them do the right thing more often, not because of personal gain but because it's the right thing to do. Without the memories, people could revert straight back to throwing insults. It's like putting a kindergartener in college math because "Well you've been here before so you must remember." but the kindergartener can't even do his times tables. How are we supposed to learn when we don't even know what lessons we've already learnt? When you're at school, you remember the previous lessons you've learnt and even have knowledge of them so why isn't it the same in a spiritual school?
If everyone remembered your past lives you could be held accountable for actions "you" never took. Imagine being born only to find out that your last life was a serial murderer and you have 300 consecutive reincarnations left before you'll ever experience freedom again.
No, I think its better that we don't remember. Plus, life wouldn't be at all novel if you've already experienced everything there is for you to enjoy.
Being hold accountable actions I never took is the concept of karma. This life I have now is the result of all my previous karma in the buddhist view of it. But how do I know I deserve this life? What did I do to earn it? I didn't do anything, I just happened to be born in this life. It doesn't feel fair to not know why we're in these lives to begin with.
Your analogy seems great to me. I would know why I'm in that specific life and I would know how long I have here. Each life would feel like making progress and making progress would show I'm truly sorry for being a serial murderer in a past life. That should be how reincarnation works, everyone knows who they were in a past life and if it's lesson oriented how many lives they have to live. If someone knows they have 300 lifetimes then they would know all the details of what they did in the 300 lifetimes. Plus if god is truly omnipotent, then he can create things he himself hasn't even seen still making things novel while rembering past lifetimes.
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