this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2025
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[–] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 37 points 3 days ago (4 children)

The safety thing is 100% true but only part of the picture.

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

China has many, many more electric vehicles than any other country and a ton of electricity production to run them. At some point it’s gonna become important to save the lithium batteries for the stuff that needs that high density power.

Maybe these better chemistries that will replace lithium are just around the corner. I certainly don’t count unhatched chickens.

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 22 points 2 days ago

Makes sense. Thanks, Gayhitler.

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Wait, what? I drain my battery every day. I need more energy density, not less. I do use my bike for long trips, driving a car during rush hour sucks, parking fees are insanely high and parking spots are rare. I sold my car and do everything by electric bike. But after 2 hours of cycling at 32km/h I need to charge.

[–] Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Also isn't lead acid heavy as fuck for the energy stored? The difference there is more noticeable on a bike.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 days ago (2 children)

It's heavy and bursty. It's really not great for sustained energy discharge, which is why it's used as a starter and not for hybrid engines at runtime.

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[–] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I meant the ~300 mile ranges common in electric cars. That’s a long trip. Plus if the car rolls to a stop by the side of the road you just gotta have it towed or charge it up in the field somehow, electric bikes have pedals.

It sucks to pedal a heavy ass ebike but you can do it in a pinch to get where you need to go.

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (18 children)

Yeah, have fun peddling a heavy as fuck ebike when you're 1 hour 32km/h drive away from home. That's over 2h of super heavy cycling because you're going super slow.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 days ago (2 children)

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

Actually, ebikes need energy density the most. They tend to not have fast public charging. A lighter ebike has huge advantages, if only for maneuvering a couple of stairs or over a log, but also in suspension and handling + a huge difference in range/acceleration.

For an EV, you don't need "race car" performance, and heavy chemistries are ok. Bike performance just gets a huge boost from relatively minor cost to improve weight/range and performance.

[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Sodium Ion batteries would be a better weight compromise than going to shitty old lead batteries. The new sodium batteries have almost no downsides but aren't quite as energy dense as lithium types. So they might be great in a large vehicle that's already going to be heavy, not so much in a smaller car. Saving the lithium stuff for smaller things is best (phones, laptops, etc)

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[–] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 14 points 3 days ago (3 children)

I don't think you realize just how fast lead acid batteries deteriorate when using their smaller charge capacities. In cars and many electronics they are used because they can be shamelessly charged to 100%, and they are supposed to maintain 100% or close to it. They require constant monitoring to be stored properly in a way that lasts. Using them up below 50% will decrease their lifespan significantly. Lithium batteries are quite different, they shouldn't be charged to 100% but in turn they can use a greater amount of their charge while holding more of it without significant deterioration. They have significantly longer lifespans when used properly. Before we had gasoline cars we had electric cars that used lead acid batteries, there's a reason they stopped being used.

What China wants to do is eliminate the older lithium ebikes because they were built with barely any safety regulation. To do this, they need to offer a cheaper option to their citizens, and the only way they can essentially do this without the original problem persisting is using lead acid batteries, because even a cheap lead acid battery with a cheap charger isn't going to fail spectacularly like the lithium ones. LiFePO4 are far safer than lithium while still having higher energy densities, but you won't see those get promoted because they would be costlier.

[–] rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee 4 points 2 days ago

Who would have thought a ml user named gay hitler would be wrong about everything.

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[–] DudeImMacGyver@sh.itjust.works 49 points 3 days ago (4 children)
[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 14 points 3 days ago (1 children)

The headline means newly manufactured e-bikes with lead acid batteries.

[–] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 days ago (3 children)

That doesn't explain why the new bikes have older technology than the bikes they're urging people to trade in.

[–] Nytarsha@lemmy.sdf.org 15 points 3 days ago (1 children)

It's in the article:

Over the last decade or so, China has seen a shift from older AGM batteries, which are heavy and bulky, toward lighter and longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries.

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation. The government instituted new safety standards for lithium-ion batteries in e-bikes last year, but there’s also been a major pushback toward AGM batteries for the domestic market.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 8 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (2 children)

Do you know that LiFePO4 cells are the same price (in Europe), longer-lasting, lighter and safer than traction lead-acid ones? They pretty much have no disadvantages to lead-acid, and the need of a BMS (and heater if needing to charge below freezing or run below -4 °F/-20 °C) is no problem since those are a fraction of the cells' price. The only reason I see behind this move would be acute lithium shortage in China.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago (1 children)

From what I can tell, lead acid batteries in Europe have taxes applied to them to pay for recycling. Other places don’t have these taxes so lead acid batteries are very cheap there.

Having said that, I watched a video of a guy in Bangladesh recycling lead acid batteries by hand just using simple tools and a pot to melt the lead over a wood fire and a simple mold to pour the lead plates.

It’s a very basic, easy thing to do. It’s just labour intensive so it ends up very expensive if you have to pay Europeans to do it.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 3 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Lead acid is LITERALLY the oldest known rechargeable battery type so I am not surprised you can make them with ancient tools if you're also OK with 19th century "safety standards".

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[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 2 points 2 days ago

The article provides a decent explanation.

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[–] cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de 92 points 4 days ago (3 children)

I thought they would have been pushing for sodium ion batteries instead. Lead acid batteries are a bad choice for anything that needs to be cycled frequently.

[–] Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works 60 points 4 days ago

Last part of the article basically says sodium ion batteries are where they're going next.

[–] Chozo@fedia.io 46 points 4 days ago

They're a also bad choice for e-bikes because they're heavy as hell. I had an e-bike a while back that had two lead acid batteries, and they were about 15 lbs each. The added weight made it almost impossible to go uphill with the motor, so you'd have to pedal a much heavier bike up hills. Not a good experience at all.

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[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 54 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (3 children)

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation.

Urging citizens to buy new and inferior instead of increasing safety standards?

I'm Swiss (europe) and it's common knowledge here that chinese imported transportation devices can be russian roulette to use.

[–] bilb@lem.monster 2 points 2 days ago

The very next sentence specifically mentions that they did institute new safety standards

[–] pycorax@lemmy.world 11 points 3 days ago

I'm Singaporean and we've had a ton of apartments burnt down because of these imported Chinese ebikes already.

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Are AGM batteries really inferior? Sure, they're heavier, but they aren't vulnerable to autoignition and thermal runaway. They also contain less conflict minerals than other types of batteries.

[–] hovercat@lemmy.blahaj.zone 36 points 3 days ago (2 children)

AGM are absolutely awful compared to even the absolute worst lithium batteries, and won't last long at all if regularly cycled below even 50% SoC. LFP chemistries are a bit worse for energy density compared to NCA/NCM chemistries, but they don't contain any nickel or cobalt, and won't autoignite in the same way other chemistries will. Absolutely ridiculous they're suggesting lead batteries over better lithium options.

[–] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I thought AGM were considered "deep cycle", as in designed for their full capacity to be used between charges.

[–] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 days ago (3 children)

There are some possibly inaccurate and definitely confusing statements in the reply you got, but the first part, that agm is a physical structure of the lead acid battery that can be tipped over without making a giant mess and that deep cycle is another function of design as opposed to a function of the lead acid chemistry is correct.

What’s left unsaid is that lead acid batteries which are damaged and not working right anymore have a much safer and lower tech recycling process than lithium ones do and that’s saying something because one of the parts is lead!

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[–] SnoopBob@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

AGM just means the acid is held inside a glass mat, like fibreglass structure so instead of liquid it's like a sponge. This gives it less maintenance and more shock absorption, can also be turned or tipped over without issue. It's still lead acid just not held in liquid form.

A lead acid based battery can be deep cycle or starter or both. Being deep cycle basically means the plates inside the are battery thicker, which allows it more tolerance for being depleted as well as generally more reserve.

A real easy way to understand it that I found (when explaining it to customers without a technical background.)

Imagine instead of electricity it's water. A deep cycle battery is simply a larger tank of water with a regular size pipe to get the water out. A starter battery is a regular size tank with a large pipe to get the water out.

So if you need to start a engine that needs a chunk of water(electricity) all at once to start it , a starter battery can provide it but doesn't have alot of reserve behind it so the pipe cant stay open very long.

The deep cycle can't provide the large rush of water at once(cca) but does have lots of reserve so the pipe runs longer.

Both suffer from reduced flow(voltage drop) as the tank empties. Imagine the pipe not able to be completely filled as the tank drained, you still get water but the rate is reduced as the pressure behind drops. Both suffer damage if left too empty or are drawn too low, a deep cycles design just gives it far more tolerance to that depleted state, allow it to be cycled more( charged from empty) more times before the battery fails.

Dual purpose batteries are basically large tank, large pipe.

It's worth noting that DC voltage only draws what it needs, you can hook up the largest battery bank to the smallest load with no issue as far as the size of the bank etc if everything is setup and function correctly.

Lithium suffers from none of these drawbacks. (As well as many more advantages) Gotta use the newer tech that is far safer though. Early Lithium and most cheap none reputable stuff is using the riskier tech with substandard QC.

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[–] jeena@piefed.jeena.net 40 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I mean there are quite many fires in China started by those e-bikes but I thought it was because of bad quality.

[–] rumba@lemmy.zip 43 points 4 days ago (2 children)

There are chemistries that are less volatile But they're less energy dense as well.

The biggest problem I see on most of the Chinese stuff is a lack of safety in the battery packs. They're just mass-producing cells and shoving them together, It wouldn't be very expensive to put a small battery management system on every cell. Watch each cell for voltage and temperature. Have them shut down when they're out of safety margins

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 31 points 4 days ago (1 children)

LiFePO4 is still superior to traction lead-acid in pretty much every way: energy density, safety, time and cycle life, internal resistance... Yes, they need a BMS but those are very cheap and lots of batteries have them built-in. In fact, I was unable to find 4-cell packs without a BMS inside so I could put two of them in series and balance the 8S cells with each other using an active BMS of my choice, and ended up ordering individual cells and screwing them together.

[–] noride@lemm.ee 24 points 4 days ago (3 children)

Also worth mentioning LiFePO4 is like half the weight of lead acid and it's far less susceptible to voltage sag under load. The only area I think LiFePO4 runs into challenges is the inability to charge below freezing. Lead acid is a real workhorse when it comes to the extremes.

[–] chaosCruiser@futurology.today 15 points 4 days ago (4 children)

The article also mentions sodium ion batteries as an alternative. Can’t wait to see how they perform in real life.

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