this post was submitted on 20 Sep 2023
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[–] breadsmasher@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago (21 children)

inb4 gunheads seeth over their right to carry murder tools is better than a childs right to not be shot

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 24 points 1 year ago (12 children)

As long as the 2nd amendment is in place it's not possible to ban guns. It will not happen.

Now, that being said, if you don't like that, there is a process to fix it:

  1. Get two thirds of the House to agree on a new amendment. 290 votes out of 435. The problem with that is the House is currently struggling to get a 218 vote simple majority on basic things, like "Who is the House leader?" or "Can we fund the government?"

  2. Once you get that, then you need 67 votes in the Senate, the same body incapacitated by a 60 vote majority to overcome the filibuster placed on, well, everything. The Republicans in the Senate block everything.

  3. Assuming you get enough people for 1 and 2, now it goes to the states for ratification. You need 38 out of 50. To put that in perspective, in 2020 Joe Biden won 25 states + Washington DC. Donald Trump won 25 states. To pass a new gun amendment, you would need ALL 25 Biden states + 13 Trump states. Any Biden state that refuses to ratify means you need an extra Trump state. There are only 19 states with Democratic controlled state legislatures, which means a likelyhood of needing 19 Trump states instead of 13.

[–] GiddyGap@lemm.ee 21 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Most people are not asking to "ban guns." Most people are asking for restrictions that keep people safe, not least our school children, and a ban on military-style weapons like AR-15s. That's not unreasonable nor impossible.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 6 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Not impossible with any other Supreme Court, but this one is vastly different from the one that ruled during the Assault Weapons Ban that expired in 2004.

Since then, ruling after ruling, the court has re-enforced and expanded gun rights. It's going to get ugly when they hear the AWB and high capacity bans out of California.

Here's a primer on how things have changed, I'll need to save this because it will come up again:

D.C. Vs. Heller - 2008:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

"The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District's total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of "arms" that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition – in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute – would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional."

You can't ban an entire class of weapon, in this case handguns. But that would apply to ANY class, such as banning rifles, shotguns, and, yes, semi-automatic rifles.

McDonald vs. City of Chicago - 2010
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._City_of_Chicago

"the second amendment right recognized in Heller is fully applicable to the states through the due process clause of the fourteenth amendment. In so holding, the Court reiterated that "the Second Amendment protects the right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense" (id. at ___, 130 S. Ct. at 3026); that "individual self-defense is 'the central component' of the Second Amendment right"

Needed re-stating because D.C. is a unique legal entity and not a state. McDonald exists to say "Yes, states too."

Caetano v. Massachusetts - 2016
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caetano_v._Massachusetts

This is actually my favorite one of these because it goes in an unusual direction. Woman was being threatened by an abusive ex and bought a taser for protection.

MA charged her saying that tasers didn't exist at the time of the 2nd amendment, so she had no right to own one.

Enter the court:

"the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding" and that "the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States".[6] The term "bearable arms" was defined in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) and includes any ""[w]eapo[n] of offence" or "thing that a man wears for his defence, or takes into his hands," that is "carr[ied] . . . for the purpose of offensive or defensive action." 554 U. S., at 581, 584 (internal quotation marks omitted)."[10]

Anything you take into your hands for defense is allowed under the 2nd amendment. So, no, you don't have the right to a cruise missile or a tactical nuke, but if you can carry it, it's yours.

New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen - 2022
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Rifle_%26_Pistol_Association,_Inc._v._Bruen

This is the recent ruling that has everyone in a tizzy. First, because for concealed carry, it converted New York from a "may issue" state to a "shall issue" state:

"The constitutional right to bear arms in public for self-defense is not 'a second-class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees.' We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officers some special need."[26]

And second, it sets a new standard by which all gun laws will now be measured:

"When the Second Amendment's plain text covers an individual's conduct [here the right to bear arms], the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. The government must then justify its regulation by demonstrating that it is consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation. Only then may a court conclude that the individual's conduct falls outside the Second Amendment's "'unqualified command.'"

[–] GiddyGap@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

Sure, so go vote for people who want reasonable restrictions. The SC will eventually follow. It's not impossible, but people have to remember to go vote on election day. Even when it seems impossible.

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[–] vivadanang@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No no, you see, we can't do that because of -insert bullshit here-

they'll argue their critics don't understand firearms, or the difference between semi and full auto, or that AR describes armalite rifle not assault rifle... because they have no response to the actual issue - we're a country of 330 million that possesses 400 million + firearms. Too many people with ready access to firearms is the problem, but they can't address that so they'll change the subject to apocrypha.

[–] Arbiter@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I mean, banning military-style guns is a ban though.

Realistically we need regulation on who can own guns, not what guns they can own.

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[–] fubarx@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

2nd Amendment wasn't a big thing until the Supreme Court decided in Heller that the whole 'well-regulated militia' part was a nothingburger. Then the floodgates opened.

All you need is for another Supreme Court to put that part back in and restrict gun use to 'well-regulated militias.'

It's a lower bar than a constitutional amendment, but good luck putting the genie back in the bottle.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago

Oh, absolutely agreed, but keep in mind that Heller was in 2008 and the court has only gotten MORE conservative since then, not less.

Here's a fun stat:

Looking just at the Supreme Court in my lifetime (have to start somewhere!), we have had 8 Republican Presidential terms and 6 Democratic ones. Not a dramatic difference, right? Now look at the Justices placed on the court:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/members_text.aspx

Nixon - 3
Nixon/Ford - 1
Reagan - 1
Reagan - 2
Bush Sr. - 2
Bush Jr. - 0
Bush Jr. - 2
Trump - 3

Carter - 0
Clinton - 2
Clinton - 0
Obama - 2
Obama - 0*
Biden - 1

54 years, 14 Republican Justices to 5 Democratic ones.

[–] OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've never heard a single politician propose banning guns. I've only ever heard Republican pundits SAY that Democrats want to take away your guns.

Sensible gun regulation can be enacted without banning all guns. It's only the extreme right that interprets the 2nd amendment as disallowing ANY regulations.

The right uses the 2nd amendment to cut off ANY discussion of gun reforms, and the eventual result COULD be that the 2nd amendment is eliminated using the methods you described, since it could be seen as the only way to enact sensible restrictions.

I don't want to lose the second amendment, do you? I'd rather see sensible regulations put in place while still largely retaining the right to bear arms. If those of us who are interested in gun ownership fight tooth-and-nail against ANY regulations, then it will make efforts to eliminate gun ownership entirely more likely to eventually succeed.

I'd prefer be part of the conversation to determine where the right line is on gun rights, rather than trying to cut off the conversation entirely by invoking the 2nd amendment.

[–] LarryTheMatador@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)
[–] OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Unfortunately this argument is another can of worms with the hardliners, but it also highlights their hypocrisy.

It goes something like this:

Me, a moderate: "You always conveniently leave out the 'well regulated' part when you use the 2A as a shield that prevents all gun regulation"

Hardliner: "Well actually the phrase 'well-regulated' meant something different at the time it was written, and it was not intended to refer to restrictions. Generally, well regulated meant "in good working order" so we interpret that as referring to the militia itself being functional, and not that restrictions would be placed on individual gun owners."

So now you can start to see the hypocrisy with these constitutional literalists, because they insist that the text should be strictly interpreted based on what it meant at the time... but at the time, the only "arms" were single shot muskets that weren't accurate at all. So they are trying to burn the candle at both ends by at the same time applying a modern and historical interpretation of the text. Clearly the founders did not anticipate modern weapons.

The whole idea that the 2A precludes ALL restrictions is bullshit. Should individuals be able to own nuclear warheads? Obviously not. I'm personally really tired of people who (instead of engaging in a rational argument about which restrictions are appropriate) just use the 2A as a shield so that they don't have to justify their views.

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[–] SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You are correct, but it’s all about the interpretation of the law. Remember that the assault weapons ban, federal legislation on all the various tchotchkes, and the state laws on weapons and licenses have all been found constitutional. And while it won’t happen in this court, this court did establish the principle that they can reverse a decision that has historically guided laws and interpretations in this country for decades as being fundamentally flawed. The path to getting 50 votes in the senate to kill the filibuster, then expand the court with new appointees to turn the balance, then wait for the firearms cases to come in is easier than changing the constitution. I mean, we can’t even do that much at this point, but the math is easier.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 3 points 1 year ago

They were found Constitutional before Heller in 2008... that's the problem. The court has only veered harder right since then.

California's AWB and magazine size restrictions are being challenged, I don't expect them to survive. The magazine limit has already been struck down by lower courts, I don't see the current Supremes being more favorable to it.

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[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 27 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The fact that 'families upended by school shootings' is a significant enough demographic to be relevant in us politics, is saying something of itself.

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Getting murdered by guns is the number one cause of children's deaths in the United States of America.

[–] GiddyGap@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Just sad, isn't it? Even more sad that we don't do anything about it.

[–] atticus88th@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Did we stop the thoughts and prayers?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I would like an explanation from some of the people here touting the Second Amendment as an end-all and be-all to explain why it is that only in the past couple of decades has there been a huge gun proliferation. Shouldn't the amount of guns have stayed relative to the population if this is only about the Second Amendment?

[–] dangblingus@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

It's not about whether or not it checks out logically for you. That's libtard thinking. It only matters that the 2A nuts get as many phallic objects in their possession as possible so you know that they do manly shit real good.

[–] Dinsmore@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

In my personal opinion, seems like a number of factors are at work. First, the second amendment has become more republican-coded, so republicans are probably more likely to purchase more guns than they would have. Second, the media's sensationalism has constantly increased, so a lot of people consider a gun to be a prudent option - either viewing many cities to be hellholes, and the only way they would travel there is with a CCW, or seeing crazy people fighting over COVID supplies and thinking "maybe they're coming for my toilet paper, better get a gun." Third, a lot of firearm-curious people see the rise of the republicans arming up and feel like they have no choice but to also get a gun.

One concerning element in all of this is that even though there has been an increase in guns, it doesn't seem like there has been a corresponding increase in gun ranges, so people are likely not achieving competence with their guns.

[–] atticus88th@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Im not saying 2a is perfect but when you have actions like we see from CA and NM politicians, it gives more fuel for the crazies to say "Look they are coming to take our guns" Also an extremely large majority of responsible gun owners agree that there needs to be more protections in place but are quickly turned off as soon as someone says certain firearms or accessories will be completely banned.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

That in no way explains what I would like explained. Unless you are saying the ridiculous amount of gun proliferation in the last couple of decades are because of those gun regulating politicians, which I find hard to buy.

[–] atticus88th@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I does actually. What drives people to hoard things when they see headlines that an item is in limited supply? See the similarity? FOMO for the American consumer is a heluva drug.

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[–] BigMacHole@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

I don't care HOW MANY kids have to die NO ONE is coming after my gun that I hang on my wall loaded and never use but when people come to my house I can pretend my penis is big! Fuck your kids! I need my penis enlarger!

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Here's the trick... the Nashville shooter had no criminal record and bought the guns 100% legally. There is no gun restriction that would block someone who passes the background check from buying a gun.

BUT:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Nashville_school_shooting

"Hale was under care for an emotional disorder and had legally purchased seven firearms, including three recovered from the shooting scene, between October 2020 and June 2022.[1]"

If someone is under psychological care, should that be allowed to pop up on a background check? Maybe not as an instant disqualification the way a court ordered commitment or conviction would, but as an advisory note? Leave it to the discretion of the firearms seller? "By the way, this person is undergoing psych care, you could be held liable if they use this firearm in a crime." That kind of thing?

Because right now, the only stuff that shows up on the background check are things that were ruled on by a judge, and sometimes not even all of those.

For example:

The guy who shot up Michigan State University:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Michigan_State_University_shooting

"McRae was arrested in June 2019 for carrying a weapon without a concealed pistol license.[38] Initially charged with a felony, he pleaded guilty to misdemeanor unlawful possession of a loaded firearm as part of a plea agreement in November 2019.[39] He was originally sentenced to twelve months' probation, which was later extended to 18 months, and in May 2021, he was discharged from probation.[35] Because McRae was not convicted of a felony, his ban on possessing weapons ended with the end of his probation.[40]"

Arrested for a felony gun charge, pled out to a misdemeanor, did his time, did his probation, was allowed to buy guns again.

Had he been convicted of the felony, he would have been blocked from owning a gun. The misdemeanor was not a barrier and did not appear on the background check.

Maybe it should have? Maybe ANY gun charges, felony OR misdemeanor should bar you from gun ownership?

[–] tarjeezy@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you stigmatize psychological care by making it a black mark that shows up on your record, people will just avoid getting the help they need and society will be worse off for it.

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[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 3 points 1 year ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


The parents who testified spilled their own stories, but also carried the weight of representing and speaking for the six people — including three children — who were killed by a shooter on March 27 inside The Covenant School.

Throughout the corridors of many state Capitols, families are sharing emotionally gutting stories of tragedy caused by mass school shootings with the hope that revealing their trauma will convince lawmakers from either party to reconsider firearm policies.

Lawmakers in Florida’s Republican-controlled Legislature passed a series of gun control laws just three weeks after authorities say a mentally disturbed man killed 17 people in a shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland.

The legislation raised the gun-buying age to 21, imposed a three-day waiting period for purchases and let police seek court orders seizing guns from individuals considered a danger to themselves or others — a stronger “red flag” change than a Tennessee proposal that couldn’t even get a hearing.

In April, Kimberly Mata-Rubio waited for more than 12 hours at the Texas Capitol to testify that lawmakers should raise the purchase age for semiautomatic rifles like the one an 18-year-old gunman used to kill her daughter Lexi.

During one committee hearing, parents closely connected to the Covenant shooting audibly gasped, and some fled the room in tears, when Republican Rep. Chris Todd suggested that the shooter “probably would have driven over those kids” if they didn’t have a gun, as a way to dismiss that fewer firearms — rather than more — would have prevented the tragedy.


The original article contains 1,196 words, the summary contains 258 words. Saved 78%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

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