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Sisko was kind of crazy... (startrek.website)

submitted 1 year ago by GaiusGornicusCaesar@startrek.website to c/risa@startrek.website

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[–] Stamets@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Okay. I'ma do it. I'm going to say the most controversial thing I've ever said on here so far.

Sisko is my least favorite Captain by a significant margin. Him making a planet completely uninhabitable for humanoid life and forcing refugees to flee again is a seriously big reason as to why I don't like him. The whole assassination plot is another reason, although that's open for debate. Sterilizing a planet for centuries just so you can hunt down a single man? One that you have a personal connection with? One you clearly have feelings of vengeance over? I can't get with it.

"You cannot explain away a wantonly immoral act because you think it is connected to some higher purpose." ~ Jean-Luc Picard

[–] PurpleCat@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

As someone who has had this opinion "Sisko is a war criminal who destroyed a planet's biosphere" I encourage you to rewatch the episode.

the "refugees" are terrorists who developed the bomb Sisko used, he just returned it from cardassian DNA to human DNA
this is not about a personal vendetta, this is about the treaty with cardassia that will save lives.
These terrorists are jeopardizing peace just because they aren't willing to relocate, not because they have a spiritual connection with the land ("TNG:Journey's End") but because they "Already built a home here" . The settlers Picard was going to remove by force actually joined the cardassians because they didn't want to leave, but the Maqius are so racist they were willing to use said weapon to make the planet uninhabitable to cardassians
on racism: Eddington says "the Maqius are not killers" after blowing up a cardassian vessel.
yes they did have a vendetta but Sisko played that aspect of this conflict so Eddington would turn himself in.

It's not confirmed in the show or anything, but I doubt the Maqius were only going to use that weapon defensively.

[–] Stamets@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I've rewatched the episode fairly recently and I stand by my decision. Sisko had no reasonable justification to do what he did, in my opinion. Are there arguments? Sure, but none that I consider valid simply because of the quote that I ended that previous comment on. You cannot explain away a wantonly immoral act because you think it is connected to some higher purpose.

Terrorist is a point of opinion. They were still people fleeing occupation and reclaiming their world. On top of that, are you willing to say that every single Maquis member is a terrorist? Every man, woman and child? That they deserved to all go through that when they might not have any other options to turn to? That doesn't seem very Starfleet to me.

That being said, who they are makes literally no difference to me. There were other solutions. Sisko didn't need an immediate answer in that moment. He actively went to the planet and decided to gas it himself. The actions carried out by Sisko are the problem. Not who he takes them out on. But the personal vendetta plays a significant role and you cannot deny that it does. The majority of the episode is Sisko throwing a temper tantrum over Eddington. Eddington even successfully manages to tease Sisko into making rash decisions. Sisko actively endangered his own crew to hunt down Eddington. The Defiant was not remotely fit for service but he still brought her out, nearly smashing the hell out of it by colliding with the station itself.

Every single action taken by Sisko in that episode horrifies me. He allows himself to get played so easily and then says "Oh I'll play the villain" and attacks the planet. He's so utterly not Starfleet in that episode that it hurts. The fact he doesn't show any remorse, but actively enjoys the fact that he's managed to capture Eddington, really sickens me. If he had shown any iota of a problem with what he was doing then it would be a different conversation. Sisko didn't. He rarely shows remorse and it's why I don't like him. A good Captain should be willing to question the decisions he makes. When he doesn't the answer of what's right and what's wrong, he shouldn't be able to sleep well at night. The fact I have two episodes to point to and say "Look at Sisko commiting unspeakable acts. Now look at Sisko completely absolving himself of all responsibility and assuring himself that he's right" really sticks in my craw. I can't like the man.

[–] PurpleCat@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

About your quote: “You cannot explain away a wantonly immoral act because you think it is connected to some higher purpose.” ~ Jean-Luc Picard

I look at it in three ways,

Wantonly: We can either define as "(of a cruel or violent action) deliberate and unprovoked." or "in a reckless way" Reckless: without thinking or caring about the consequences of an action.

I think we can agree that this was not a unprovoked or reckless action. It was provoked by the Marquis use of cloaked missiles armed with biogenic (Genocidal?) weapons, in addition to Eddington's betrayal, theft and sabotage. It was not reckless because this was all leading up to the dominion war. This is after the first adversarial conflict with the dominion, and getting the Cardassians as an ally would undoubtedly be more beneficial than an alliance with the ragtag Maquis. Though I am curious if you believe otherwise.

Re: Immorality: I think my other comment has more to discuss on this point, so I wont repeat that here.
Higher Purpose: I can see this in a few ways The first is merrian-webster, and the least helpful: " a more meaningful reason to live, work, etc"
secondly is the top result on google for me
Which gives several points, but boils it down to "Higher purpose is just purpose beyond yourself, and you identify it when you find a goal that you really want and believe in." and lastly, I see it used often in a religious way.

What "Higher Purpose" do you believe Sisko uses, and why use this quote for this situation?

Eddington says he has a Higher cause/purpose , but I (as sisko does) argue he is the one acting recklessly in additionally to selfishly here, risking war with the Cardassians when there is a greater threat looming (The dominion) , a threat Eddington would know about as security officer.

EDDINGTON: Tell me, Captain. What is it that bothers you more? The fact that I left Starfleet to fight for a higher cause, or the fact that it happened on your watch?

SISKO: You didn't leave Starfleet. If you had, I wouldn't be here. You betrayed Starfleet. You used your position as security chief to feed the Maquis information about us. And at the same time, you misled us with false information about them. There is a word for that. Treason.

EDDINGTON: Look out there.

(Sisko looks out into the main cave again.)

EDDINGTON: Those people, They were colonists on Salva Two. They had farms, and shops, and homes, and schools, and then one day the Federation signed a treaty and handed their world over to the Cardassians. Just like that. They made these people refugees overnight.

SISKO: It's not that simple and you know it. These people don't have to live here like this. We've offered them resettlement.

EDDINGTON: They don't want to be resettled. They want to go home to the lives they built. How would you feel if the Federation gave your father's home to the Cardassians?

SISKO: I'm not here to debate Federation policy with-

EDDINGTON: I didn't tell you to turn around. Look at them, Captain. They're humans, just like you and me, and Starfleet took everything away from them. Remember that the next time you put on that uniform. There's a war out there and you're on the wrong side.

SISKO: You know what I see out there, Mister Eddington? I see victims, but not of Cardassia or the Federation. Victims of you, the Maquis. You sold these people on the dream that one day they could go back to those farms, and schools, and homes, but you know they never can. And the longer you keep that hope alive, the longer these people will suffer.

This conflict is morally grey, but I don't think its appropriate to just write off my arguments because of a quote from another morally compromised captain.

[–] Disgustoid@startrek.website 0 points 1 year ago

I'm in the middle of my DS9 rewatch and totally forgot about the stark difference between Sisko hair and Sisko bald. I just watched the Homefront/Paradise Lost episodes and the episode where Eddington defects to the Maquis and watching Sisko go all badass and lose his shit was fantastic.