this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024

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361

Kremlin could be 'nervous' as angry Russians send messages to Putin amid Ukraine counterattack (www.abc.net.au)

submitted 3 months ago by lemmee_in@lemm.ee to c/world@lemmy.world

52 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Angry Russians displaced after Ukraine crossed the border and invaded the Kursk region last week have vented their frustrations online to President Vladimir Putin.

The criticisms represent an unusually public show of defiance in a country where any cracks at the leader or military can draw harsh punishments.

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[–] rustyfish@lemmy.world 111 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I am not 100% sold on this. People ARE complaining to Putin but not the way we might think. Many try to speak directly to him in a manner of “you might not be aware of this”, or “every politician around is a corrupt criminal except our glorious leader, they just don’t tell him”.

It reminds me of people getting sent into the gulag murmuring “If Stalin knew of this”, ignoring the fact that it was Stalin himself who signed the imprisonment.

If you are interested about the Russian peoples reaction. It’s frustrating to listen to some.

[–] curry@programming.dev 18 points 3 months ago

There's also the issue of self-censorship. No way of knowing if any Russian folk interviewed actually agree to what they say.

[–] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 14 points 3 months ago

My favorite story about the gulags is the childhood of Mikhail Gorbachev.

He was born in a family of peasant farmers. His paternal grandfather opposed the collectivization of the farms and was sent to the gulag. His maternal grandfather supported collectivization of the farms, and ended up as the chair of the local farm. He was also sent to the gulag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev

[–] N0body@lemmy.dbzer0.com 79 points 3 months ago (1 children)

The strategy of getting the public to ignore the war by sending oppressed minorities into the meat grinder falls apart when the friends and loved ones of those you’re telling to ignore the war become POWs.

All of the sudden, the treatment of prisoners matters. All of the sudden, the war becomes real.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 30 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I wouldn't discount the Russian capacity to disconnect even in those circumstances.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 22 points 3 months ago (2 children)

While it might seem that the Russian population could disconnect under such dire circumstances, history shows that Russians have the capacity to rise against oppressive conditions imposed by their own government. The Russian Revolution of 1917 is a prime example. Amidst widespread dissatisfaction with the Tsarist regime due to economic hardship, military failures, and political repression, the Russian people ultimately overthrew a centuries-old monarchy.

Similarly, the protests and eventual collapse of the Soviet Union in the late 1980s and early 1990s highlight the power of their collective action. The combination of economic stagnation, political corruption, and a desire for greater freedoms led to mass demonstrations that ultimately brought down the regime.

These historical precedents suggest that while disconnection and passivity are possible; they are by no means guaranteed. When the consequences of government actions become too severe—whether through economic hardship, loss of life, or a perceived betrayal of public trust—the Russian populace has shown that it can indeed mobilize to demand change.

[–] illi@lemm.ee 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Poor Russians though, it always got marginally better at best, and then it got worse again... Hope their next change is around the corner and is longer lasting.

[–] namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev 4 points 3 months ago

it always got marginally better at best, and then it got worse again

But why? I think it's because Russians just don't exhibit a lot of civic engagement. When you see the kinds of things Putin did to get into power, do you think any of those actions would slide in any other well-functioning liberal democracies? Just look at how Ukraine responded during Euromaidan. You just don't see that kind of engagement happening in Russian society.

So why does it keep getting worse again? Unfortunately, it's because they let it.

[–] thebestaquaman@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago

The last sentence in every chapter of the Russian history book:

And then it got worse.

[–] avidamoeba@lemmy.ca 11 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Not sure if LLM text or real effort, but if the latter - thank you. I think you're right on all historical points and the conclusion. I think in the current status quo things are just nowhere near as dire for the average Russian as they were during the examples you gave. The economy is doing well for individuals and most probably won't see war up close even with Ukraine's incursion. Could be wrong.

[–] drathvedro@lemm.ee 6 points 3 months ago

This is indeed correct. No need for LLM's as there are plenty of Russians on lemmy who can just tell. As one myself, I can tell you, it's still mostly business as usual. Kursk incursion sparked less bang than, say, the Orenburg flooding or Krokus shooting. Economically speaking, the inflation is fucking insane, everything jumped about 2X in the last couple of years. Though still somewhat manageable as society is undergoing a major shift where some salaries, particularly those related to military complex have jumped even more than that, while others remained the same, which put many people way below poverty line. There isn't really a deficit in anything, some things, like coca cola, were replaced by locally sourced substitutes, while in other cases, if you've got money, there's always gray imports - e.g. I'm getting my monster cans smuggled from Poland at X4 the usual price. Surprisingly, some good things came out of it, too - I freaking love SBP. Visa and Mastercard can suck a big one. As for coffins on coffins, none of my direct friends or relatives went voluntarily or got drafted. The ones who stayed surprisingly got extremely desensitized of the whole situation, seemingly turning to support the regime, or at least so in public. A couple of relatives of a spouse of a relative went in for the money. As far as I'm aware, both are alive, one is fighting right now, and the other returned, already spent it all, and now considers going back again for a round two. All in all, compared to the state of things before past revolutions, as I read about them, not even Ukraine is at that point yet, much less so for Russia.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

Full disclosure, the text is my own but some of the historical references were summarized through LMM and copy/pasted.

While Russia has avoided a complete economic collapse, the average Russian is facing a harsher economic environment with higher costs, reduced income, and fewer consumer options.

The long-term impacts of these sanctions and economic adjustments are still unfolding, but they have undeniably made daily life more difficult for many in Russia.

Has it reached a point that matches the historical instabilities that fostered revolutionary action in the past? No; but I do think the potential exists if the current sanctions and poor battlefield performance continue.

Two things are very hard to deny, even with heavy-handed propaganda: the cost of bread & loved ones returning home in coffins.

[–] gressen@lemm.ee 16 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I would very much prefer if the use of LLMs would be disclosed in messages.

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[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

some of the historical references were summarized through LMM and copy/pasted.

Meaning they could be utter bullshit like a lot of what comes out of LLMs.

[–] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

In this instance it’s accurate

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Then OP should have found a way to present it so that people could more easily verify it and not just expect us all to trust software which constantly lies.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago (2 children)

It’s not a 14 page paper, it’s two references to widely known historical events. I feel like I’m going insane…

Prompt: In 1-2 sentences, summarize the Russian revolution”s impact on social unrest.

Responses: Amidst widespread dissatisfaction with the Tsarist regime due to economic hardship, military failures, and political repression, the Russian people ultimately overthrew a centuries-old monarchy.

I’m not saying “create me a story about Russian people revolting”. I’m taking an event I’m already aware of and asking for it to get boiled down to a simple statement.

I would know if it’s lying because I paid attention in high school and college & I know what the Russian revolution is.

This is being blown way out of proportion because people see “LLM” and freak out. I use LLMs constantly in my day to day life for shit like this (and I’m not going to stop). I also feed it things I’ve written and ask it to check grammar and tighten it up. The LLM isn’t “creating” anything in those cases either, it’s just making things easier to read/understand; acting as an editor.

Sorry if that scares you.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It doesn't scare me. I just see no reason to trust LLMs after all the lies. There are plenty of legitimate sources that could be quoted.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

A People’s Tragedy: The Russian Revolution: 1891-1924.

Orlando Figes, 1998

Go read it and tell me what you learn; happy?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Believe it or not, there is a huge gulf between "paste what a lying sentence construction machine says" and "require people to go to the right library."

But of course, that would require you to be arguing in good faith.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Lmao, we aren’t talking about some obscure, niche topic. You asked for a source and I gave you one…

Stop moving the goalposts; if anyone is arguing in bad faith it’s you my friend.

Google “russian revolution 1917” and read the first academic article you see. Your lack of research is not my responsibility…

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I never moved the goalposts. If you can't figure out how to paste text from and then link to a couple of websites on the subject or even Wikipedia and thus rely on the thing that tells people to put glue on pizza, don't be surprised if you're criticized for it.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I’m perfectly capable of pasting a link to a website; I chose to use a source from a book I read in college and is sitting on a shelf at my house.

I’m not obligated to do a Google search for you.

And again, the LLM isn’t doing my research for me; it’s summarizing an event that I’m already aware of.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I'm afraid you don't understand how the burden of proof works. I'd give you an easy link to understand it, but someone told me recently, "I'm not obligated to do a Google search for you."

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

If you can’t be bothered to spend 5 mins looking something up then you’re welcome to believe whatever you want.

This isn’t a court case, we’re having a conversation in an Internet forum. What you’re calling a “burden of proof”, I’m choosing to call intellectual laziness.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I’m choosing to call intellectual laziness.

Now that's some irony from someone who gets sentence-construction software to write posts on their behalf.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Are you incapable of grasping that the LLM wrote a total of like 3 sentences in a 3 paragraph comment?

And yea, the fact that you can’t seem to google 3 words and read a couple articles instead of being purposefully obtuse reeks of intellectual laziness.

Sorry, not sorry.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

"I wasn't being lazy because I only used the lie machine a little bit."

Gotcha.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

So you don’t have an actual argument, you’re just going to prop up the LLM strawman instead?

Is what I said wrong? Or are your feelings hurt because I used a tool to summarize something?

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

You are now flagrantly violating our incivility rule. If you wish to continue this discussion, do not violate it again. If you do not wish to continue it, that is fine.

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (5 children)

Lmao, what authority do you hold?

So, calling out blatant logical fallacies is not being civil?

Ok buddy, you do you…

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[–] FarceOfWill@infosec.pub 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I find it extremely difficult to believe two events over 70 years apart that I know are very different in many ways could ultimately have the same underlying cause.

And as you haven't actually made a point, just asserted they do, there's no reason to believe they do. LLM or not

[–] g0zer@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I don’t know what to tell you. You can pretty easily look up the agreed upon causes of two pretty impactful and well known historical events. We aren’t talking about some small conflict in some small village in sub-Saharan Africa; the events in question are the Russian revolution and fall of the Soviet Union.

I’m sure you can find dissenting opinions, but what I commented is largely agreed upon.

Had I not been honest about using LLMs to summarize a few sentences, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. If you want to play devils advocate, provide a differing opinion. Your only hang up seems to be that I used a LLM in any capacity.

I’m not even saying it’s the only cause, just that it contributed…

[–] KevonLooney@lemm.ee 1 points 3 months ago

Meaning they could be utter bullshit like a lot of what comes out of ~~LLMs.~~ Lemmy users.

[–] style99@lemm.ee 36 points 3 months ago (1 children)

If you think about it, it kind of makes sense. Putin can't threaten to torture/imprison your friends and relatives if your friends and relatives are all sitting in a POW camp somewhere. There's nothing to stop these people from calling him out.

[–] drathvedro@lemm.ee 4 points 3 months ago

What? That's the strategy for threatening people in exile. Those people, he can just torture and imprison right away. But he doesn't need to, he just silenced them. Believe me, as someone who has endure being in Russia and having TV running 24/7 beside me, that none of it is seen on TV, or any publicly accessible websites for that matter.

[–] bender223@lemmy.today 31 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Putin: No way!

Zelenskyy: Way!

[–] MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world 31 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Have they tried having some of their billionaires fall ot of windows yet?

[–] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

so far they've not opted for impromptu flying lessons, no.

[–] Plopp@lemmy.world 24 points 3 months ago (2 children)

"Could be". Now that's a hard hitting headline of breaking news right there.

[–] qooqie@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago

“Putin could be having a really hard time right now” oh wow thanks for the info

[–] Kalysta@lemm.ee 6 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Aww. People in Russia are upset they can’t contact relatives? Zero sympathy after what their country has done to Ukraine. Maybe they should demand a ceasefire.

Even if Russia won this war, and conquered parts of ukraine they will always have to deal with resistance groups. People aren’t just going to allow their homes to be conquered. What is Russia thinking dragging this on?

[–] Miaou@jlai.lu 8 points 3 months ago

Russian civilians being upset is kind of the point of this attack, no need to be snarky.

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