this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2024
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[–] archomrade@midwest.social 88 points 2 months ago (3 children)

For those in here that take offense to this distinction:

2 party political systems function to collapse diverse political perspectives into one of two camps and normalize an 'average' view for both parties. Leftists take issue with this collapse because it erases dissenting views within each party in service of defeating an 'other' at the expense of pursuing our real political goals.

The label matters to those of us who want to make the point that the US democratic party does not really represent our interests; at-best they represent a less-objectionable flavor of the same ideological framework, but one that needs to be dismantled all the same.

"Stop trying to divide us!" is a refrain spoken by those who are better served by the party than we are.

Put another way: "We are not the same"

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 25 points 2 months ago (32 children)

I think the current best demonstration on this is how hard people are pushing Mark Kelly as VP.

They push a center-right president onto the stage and then dangle another "centrist" to try and, what? Appeal to Never Trumper Republicans? Racists?

How about you offer actual progressives some goddamn enticement for once and offer it to Jamaal Bowman, who the Dems primaried in favor of a genocidal AIPAC stooge?

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[–] seahorse@midwest.social 7 points 2 months ago

Very well put

[–] SteveFromMySpace@lemmy.blahaj.zone 58 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Every single democrat politician is “radical leftist [name]”

It’s the new communist. They just throw the word out all the time making it functionally meaningless.

[–] Kalkaline@leminal.space 11 points 2 months ago

They didn't like John McCain, so they lumped him in with the rest of us.

[–] thesporkeffect@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

The upside of that is it works against their overton window dragging, if you are going to be called a commie leftist no matter what might as well lean into it

[–] volodya_ilich@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago

How does it work against overton window dragging if saying "maybe people should stop dying of preventable disease in the wealthiest country on earth" gets you labelled a communist? It's precisely the sign that the overton window is shifted to the far right

[–] Wes4Humanity@lemm.ee 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Sure wish the libs would get this

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[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 28 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Using neo-liberals to define liberals is like using national socialism to define socialism.

It's authoritarian propaganda.

[–] seahorse@midwest.social 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Libs and leftists are different

[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 6 points 2 months ago (8 children)

Sure, but liberals are still left wing, and saying they're not is just making enemies out of other left wingers, with is a long standing left tradition.

You'd all get so much further if you recognised allies in one area don't have to be allies in all areas. You can all have your own opinions and work together where it suits you towards set goals, rather than name calling, "no true Scotsman"-ing and in fighting. It honestly feels like the right have infiltrated the left at times, and just turned them on each other.

[–] Revan343@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 months ago

I've never met a liberal who was left of center

[–] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

In what world are liberals left wing? Here in Europe liberals are all considered centrists. Even the ones that are for the well-fare state.

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

America and the rest of the Western world use liberal completely differently. We have a self enforced two party system in the US so it's real easy to boil everything down to an either/or fallacy.

At any rate we've stuck all the civil rights stuff, public goods, and people based governance under the tag of liberalism. And all the pro corporate stuff, anti rights, and privatization under Conservatism.

The biggest shift in that paradigm in the last 20 years has been a collective realization that both parties believe governance should favor corporations.

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[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yeah..

ITT: people who are in a state of BBQ flavored confusion.

Lemmy help y'all out.

leftist: some socialist policies, universal healthcare, publicly funded education, jobs programs, ubi, abolition, etc..

liberal: voting rights, property ownership, access to banking, civil liberties

neo liberal: global access to markets, global tade, international standards bodies, world banks, world courts, trade agreements.

[–] kaffiene@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Not sure I agree with your categories. I think you're conflating stances on globalisation with econonic and social issues. I'm a left wing voter and I support pretty much all the things you listed

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

But I can see how people end up with those ideas. Media sucks at teaching actual stuff.

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[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Leftist - I own personal objects. Large things are owned communally. I have human rights.

Liberal - I own anything I can buy. If the law sees me as a person then I have human rights.

Conservative - I own personal objects. Large objects are owned by a predetermined elite. I do not have human rights. Even the elite only have as many rights as they have power.

This stood me well in my poli sci studies but obviously it's hilariously top level and actual ideologies take more than a couple sentences to categorize. But this effectively covers OG Liberalism and Conservatism with Leftist ideas in their own category. Also any system of categorization is doomed to fail in the end because it's actually a 5d shifting plane of color shades out there. Like going from leftist to totalitarian or liberal to effectively wanting a king again while still talking about liberal stuff.

[–] theoretiker@discuss.tchncs.de 26 points 2 months ago (1 children)

When you have only two parties you can only have one dimension.

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[–] Sabre363@sh.itjust.works 24 points 2 months ago (17 children)

Do these labels really have any benefit or value in society, or are they just yet another lame excuse for us all to hate on a group of 'others'

[–] Imacat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 2 months ago

They referred to specific ideologies and economic and social policies before the modern corporate propaganda machine really started in the 80s. Pretty sure they’re meaningless to most Americans these days.

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[–] UmeU@lemmy.world 18 points 2 months ago

.ml has entered the chat

[–] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 17 points 2 months ago (2 children)

TBF there are about seven mutually exclusive definitions of “liberal” in each country.

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[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Americans are actually taught in school that the entire American political spectrum is inside liberalism.

They then immediately forget that anyway and fall into the conservative/liberal false paradigm.

[–] Hupf@feddit.org 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

false paradigm

I think you mean false dichotomy

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[–] Birbatron@slrpnk.net 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The thing I love about lemmy is instead of neoliberals and weird racists silencing Leftists like reddit, it's Leftists and Social democrats constantly at each other's throats.

The latter is much more amusing

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The latter is much more amusing

same here; but likely for different reasons.

i like learning about viewpoints that differ from mine; i think they help me question my own beliefs and, usually, it re-enforces them.

[–] Birbatron@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Yeah, on reddit, if you're not the mainstream reddit opinion you have to hide in an echo chamber, if you are the mainstream, then most of the platform is one giant echo chamber.

It doesn't help that they're all exceptionally rude and confrontational

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[–] courval@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Even apps like Bumble don't make a distinction, as an European I find it quite annoying

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