this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2024
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Isn't it too advanced? Seems like a good book but like the opposite of what I meant - I'm curious about beginner resources that will get people interested, knowledgeable and comfortable about using linux on a daily basis as much as they are with windows after decades of using it, not to turn them into a "superuser familiar with internals like kernel, networking, LVM".
The thing is, the day to day is mostly your distro. There are several that hide most stuff away and just work, but a resource would need to be distro specific, and the ones you'd want for a beginner are pretty straightforward. They're a start menu and an app store that work pretty much how you expect.
The hang-up is mostly "I need word" and being confused by a different document editor, or things like that, and the fact that a lot of open source alternatives to popular applications don't have as much work done on casual friendly UX. So maybe you'd want something like "alternative to" and guides to basic usage of common replacement apps?
Most anything past that is how the OS works.
Isn't there a lot of overlap though, at least between OSes that are of the same type (like debian/ubuntu)? How to set up users, knowing that you need to manually configure automatic mounting of your drives, knowing how/when to use flatpak or apt or .deb, where to install apps... These are not really intuitive things, especially for someone coming from windows, and most "how to install linux" guides don't really go into these in any meaningful way.
For instance at first I thought I could just keep a list of apt commands and make an "easy to reinstall" linux script at one time, and that lasted for whole of 10 minutes before I realized every app needs manual intervention in one or another way, or has a different way of installing. Also, as many people I just prefix everything with sudo to get it to install, but who knows if that is the correct thing to do? not me at least
How do you mean? What kind of interventions?
This is just a consequence of trying to use messy flatpaks in addition to your distro's native package manager. I get that people coming from Windows want to continue to do things the Windows way, but grabbing programs from the web is a bad habit on Linux.
This is generally correct for native package managers like apt. I would never trust installing anything foreign with elevated privileges. Rule of thumb for learners: Don't run anything with sudo, and when you encounter commands that fail to proceed, investigate why. Only then, if it truly requires elevated privs, do you sudo.
Saving the "dot files", directories in your ~/home whose names start with a period, will preserve configuration settings for pretty much all of your user-facing programs. Copy these directories back into a fresh install and you'll find that there is little reconfiguration required. I personally do this with KDE-Marble, and it has been the same program, building upon the same map cache, since around 2017.
I'd say that the best learning resource you can have is a spare computer specifically dedicated to exploring Linux, with which you can install and break and configure and break again without worry. Learning Linux can be like playing a roguelite, and I mean that also in the sense that it can be fun.
I'm trying out popOS and even the native package manager (popOS shop?) installs most applications as flatpaks afaik? I have no idea where they end up being compared to windows' program files or what kind of defaults they install with. I started putting my custom downloaded AppImages into the ~/Applications folder and then used AppImageLauncher to actually have them show up in search.
Then I will run into something like docker which is not in the shop and has a ton of commands you have to run in order to get it to work, like uninstalling conflicting packages, installing some certificates and keyrings and i dont even know what - it was supposed to work better than on windows but it is nowhere near as neat as there!
Then I install samba (again, not available in the popOS shop) and I have it running but i have no idea whether it's set to automatically run or not. Searching for it with GUI tools doesn't show it as installed anywhere so in this case i have to rely on the terminal. The popOS store does have a list of installed apps but the search field gets disabled when you go into this screen because it's only used for browsing the shop, not through your installed apps?
This is what I do but the issue is that I have no feedback on whether Im doing the right thing or if im making the life unnecessarily difficult for me. Games will slap you and make you redo something if you fuck it up, linux just makes you live in agony until sometimes breaks and you dont know why.
Interesting. I did forget that there are some distros out there trying to shoehorn this as their official package distribution method.
*Passing this hot potato to the next commenter... the great outdoors is calling me.
Haha no worries, that's also a common linux experience :P
I'd say that someone like you is more interested in using the command line to manage your package installations, so you can safely ignore the popshop as a convenience for others who are less interested in the details of their system
I want to use the terminal and I'd prefer the simplicity and reliability of a single command over various GUIs, but it doesn't feel like it's consistent or simple with the terminal either. For example with VSCode, it doesn't have
apt-get install vscodecommand (at least not listed on its installation pages) - it recommends manually downloading the deb file and then apt installing it.https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/setup/linux
I just don't know whats the proper / good way of doing it anymore. The popOS shop is horrible, you cant stop running installations cuz it freezes and stops giving any feedback, sometimes it breaks and doesn't open fully, the UX is bad, but i dont know what else to do. At least with the shop I have a clear list of installed apps and a place to uninstall them, if i do it with the terminal I have no idea where they end up living.
dpkg -lwill list all .deb packages installed on your system.That gives me a list of over 2000 rows inside of the terminal that i cant apparently search or sort -.-
Then I tried to be smart and do
man dpkg -lto see if that has any options on how to use it better, and instead i got another huge text file that i cant search or navigate through properlySo then i googled how to open it in an editor and tried
man dpkg -l | nano, which does open it for a second and then crashes, i just get "too many errors from stdin, buffer written to nano.12608.save" in the terminalofc something as simple as
map dpkg -l | vscodedoesnt work eitherI'm just tired
It can be exhausting to know just enough to see results that aren't quite what you're after, but not quite know enough to refine it to get what you want. And you're supper close to it. Here's some things to fill the gap (and correct a misunderstanding or two):
The
dpkg -lcommand can be postfixed with a search pattern:dpkg -l lib*will return all packages with names that start withlibdpkg -l ?lib*will return all packages with names that havelibin the second third and fourth character positions.Yeah, man pages are overwhelming at times. There are ways to navigate them in the terminal, but I would have to look that up because I pretty much never do that. It's easier for me to just look it up online or open the text in an editor. Looks like you had the same idea with trying
man dpkg -l | nanoandman dpkg -l | vscodeand you were so close to the end goal of reading the man page in a text editor!Here are two ways you can make it work:
For both methods you will need to drop the
-lso just useman dpkg.Method 1:
Use the
>operator to redirect the output ofman dpkgto a file:man dpkg > dpkg.man(note that the file name after the
>operator above can be anything you want the name of the file to be. I chosedpkg.manbecause it seemed like it would be easy to remember for me.)Then open the file using nano or vscode:
nano dpkg.mancode dpkg.man(note the name of the package for vscode is
code)Method 2:
Use the
|operator to send the output ofman dpkgto a nano filebuffer:man dpkg | nanoThen open file that was saved when nano returned an error message. In your case:
nano nano.12608.savecode nano.12608.save(This second method feels a bit janky but it works.)
Since you were talking about using
apt-getandaptto manage packages, I'll suggest nala as a more beginner friendly alternative that is more verbose and explicit about what it is doing. Give nala a try.I hope this helps and that you can return to learning how to get things done using Linux with renewed resolve now that you've had some time away from it.
Keep asking questions! You're probably learning more than you realize already.
Thank you very much for such a detailed answer! This is exactly the type of stuff I wanted to learn in advance from some generalist tutorial because honestly, I feel bad constantly asking such basic questions and there's no guarantee there will always be someone like you to answer them. In retrospect it's probably the smarter and simpler option to just google the command docs online, I just wanted to do it "right" since I heard all the praise about
mancommand and you never know if you're working offline.I'll check out nala, could be a good learning tool, thanks!
I find that books and resources on basics are hard to find motivation to get through. I don't have a problem researching for an hour or two when I'm stuck on something that I want to accomplish, but that same information would be impossible for me to focus on if there's no immediate motive to read it. Knowing that some information might generally come in handy later is often not enough for me to stick with it. So I don't think people really mind helping people with "basic" questions, but their availability can unreliable.
That said, there are a lot of good suggestions in both threads you started and if you can stick with any of them it will probably be a big boost for your comfort level in using Linux.
Now you can open man pages in your favorite text editor with all the associated navigational conveniences!
A lot of people who try nala never switch back to apt, I hope you find it more pleasant to use.
There is and there isn't.
Some things are pretty standardized. Users and groups, permissions, systemd (usually), a lot of the underlying architecture is pretty much the same everywhere.
A lot is very much not standardized. Booting, networking, desktop environments, what specific software is installed, the specific package manager in use, I could go on and on.
To learn the former, the book I recommend is the most accessible thing I've read. You don't need to read everything, but portions were very helpful. To learn the latter, your distro will have the info you need, or should at least tell you what to look up elsewhere.