this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2024
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They don't typically mind (western) europeans traversing the continent anyway, but I'd expect a lot more hurdles for anyone else trying to get in
What are you on about?
Schengen area doesn't work like the "random checks" at TSA.
There are no border-checks within the Schengen area. Free movement.
https://www.worldtrips.com/resources/schengen-area/visa-requirements
Pretty sure they are talking about people from outside Europe
The borders are still open inside the area.
When you come from outside the area to inside the area, then there's border control, but again, the deciding factor is from a non-Schengen country to a Schengen country. (You just need a Schengen visa.)
I didn't claim we had open borders with the entire world. When crossing the Schengen area border, you will be subjected to a border-check despite your looks.
I know how Schengen works. I live next door to a Schengen country. What you are talking about isn't actually relevant, as it's people outside the Schengen area that are the main cause of concern with immigration such as Islamic countries. It's different in the UK but we are not and were never part of Schengen anyway. I don't think anyone cares about French people moving to Italy or whatever. Read the fucking room.
You also don't have to be in the Schengen area to be in the EU, or an EU member to be in Schengen. So it's even more irrelevant as a country can just leave Schengen.
So your consideration of Europe is basically French+Italy<UK, and that's it for Europe? No, you don't need to be in the EU to be in Schengen, but how is that relevant? I haven't even mentioned the EU? I said "Europe" and then specified the Schengen area, which covers most of Europe, but also includes Norway, which isn't an EU country?
My point is that there's no subjective evaluation of who has a Schengen visa and who doesn't. They straight up said western Europeans get treated differently to others, implying white privilege, but it isn't a subjective evaluation of who is checked at the border and who isn't, and even if it was a subjective evaluation, it'd be kinda hard seeing the diversity within the Schengen area.
"Read the fucking room"
Read the fucking thing you're replying to. Who talked about the EU?
I mentioned France and Italy because those are exmaples of european countries in the schengen aggreement.
I say it's different in the UK because there is much more negativity and rascism over immigration from certain parts of europe such as poland into england. In the rest of europe I don't think anyone actually cares about other europeans entering their country. If that was an actual concern they wouldn't have joined schengen in the first place. it's more about arabs. To an extent it's actually understandable as arabs are a completeley different culture, religion, and government system to how most european countries are. In some islamic countries women have less rights than in europe. It's also the case that governement and religion are much more closeley related; some are even still monarchies.
Ah, "examples of Schengen countries".
Once again, Schengen doesn't work like the "random" check at TSA, so I don't see why you keep implying that people's attitudes have something to do with this?
Weird how you completely omit mentioning the EU, though. Isn't it? Almost as if you were ashamed because you thought I had been talking about it, when I really weren't, isn't it?
I mean with like 2 exceptions you are talking about the EU, since almost all Schengen countries are EU members, and even those that aren't are still bound to the EU by things like trade aggreements or the EEC.
You still have to go through regular checks when coming from a non-schengen country, and that's the kind of immigrants the right hate the most. Do you not get it?
So your mistakes in thinking I was talking about the EU is okay because Schengen is "close enough"?
Yeah. INSIDE the area there's free movement. Once you've entered a Schengen country (with either residency or a Schengen visa), you're free to travel within the Schengen area.
Do you not get it?
That's not what the guy was talking about. You keep talking about something that's irrelevant.
"The guy"? My dude, you're in a thread that I started, so I beg to differ.
This guy: https://lemmy.world/comment/11731391
Who's replying to me talking about open borders in Europe (or more precisely, the Schengen area.) If you've got yourself a Schengen visa, then you'll be treated just the same as residents, being subjected to a border check on borders which cross non-Schengen to Schengen.
I think there's s rather clear implication that these checks happen or not, based on how Western European you look to the border control. I'm saying it's not how those borders work.
I'm saying it doesn't work like this, which is what I think is what he was implying.
Most of those non-white people the right hate are outside europe. So they would have to go through border checks and immigration before getting a Schengen visa. This isn't hard bro.
Again, there's a standard border check. Unless you're a refugee without papers, you'll have gotten your visa before actually walking up to the check.
It's not a subjective "check those brown people." It's a "papers please", for everyone.
You don't go through border checks and immigration when applying for a visa.
The tactics conservatives use has more to do with legally obtaining a visa for example by restricting which nationalities are eligible. It should never be based on the meme from a TV show. You're taking a family guy joke too literally lol.
So to recap; this is a thread about my comment saying we Europeans enjoy open borders.
Someone argued that Western Europeans get to enjoy this free movement without harassment, but that "certain" people don't.
Now you've moved the goalposts all the way to "no but you don't know how much right wing policy has actually increased scrutiny of specific groups within the Schengen visa applications", when in the last comment it was "you'll be subjected to border control and immigration"?
Before that it was "what you're saying is irrelevant to the thread." Which happens to be mine.
Europe enjoys free borders, in the West and the East.
He explicitly stated Western Europeans would get treated differently, implying "a random security screening" would be less likely with a "western European" face.
I am not the one shifting goalposts here. You just keep not getting it, over and over again. Immigration inside europe is not the thing I am concerned about here, it's more restictions placed on immigrants from outside of europe of europe that is the concern. In the worst case countries could easily leave Schengen, it's probably less difficult than leaving the EU - which has already happened in one case due to fears of immigration. You keep saying the EU is irrelevant when that map is literally has European Union written in the top left. You also don't need Schengen to have open borders - anyone could travel to UK from other EU countries before we left the union. Also I am sure in that comment you are referecing there is a reason western is in brackets. It's because the right wing while they prefer western europe to eastern europe still prefer european over non-european. Plus it's harder politically to get rid of eastern europeans as it means leaving both Schengen and the EU - both of which are still possibilities btw. These things happen incrementally, so people from outside of europe would be the first to go.
Edit: honestly you have to be either trolling at this point or incurably stupid. Just look at the downvotes you are getting and think about why. It's like you keep arguing and nitpicking without actually understanding what anyone else is trying to get across. Like we all understand what Schengen is, you don't need to explain it. In fact I am not sure you even understand what it is given it's created by the EU, and it's the EU that enforces freedom of movement and the european single market, not Schengen which has more to do with customs and security.
"I'm not shifting the goalposts", he said while shifting the goal posts.
My original comment is about open borders in Europe. Someone replied by implying immigrants get treated differently, and that looking Western European will get you different treatment. That's simply not the case.
Now you're equicovating over how easy you presume it would be for someone to leave the agreement, which it wouldn't be. It'd cost billions.
Yes, EU has an agreement about free movement as well. So? Remember that time when you started talking about the EU without having noticed that I actually hadn't even mentioned it?
You're imaging that these right wingers sit at non-existent border control points, "randomly" screening "immigrant looking" people. That's the implication at least. Which is what I've reiterated half a dozen times now, but which seems to be something you're not able to address.
"Like we all understand what Schengen is. Look at your downvotes."
I get that at your age, it's hard to admit when you do something silly, and you're constantly worried about what other people think. That's why you got so red in the face when I pointed out your mistakes. You just keep pretending you didn't say stupid shit you immediately walk back or ignore after I point out it's stupidity.
You claimed that people would be subjected to "border control and immigration", not realising you apply for a visa at an embassy, not at the border. This entirely thread is you pretending you didn't say stupid shit you could've easily checked before posting.
I haven't said the EU is irrelevant. I said I never mentioned it, when you thought I did, because you don't properly read the things you're replying to. The Schengen area covers more of Europe than the EU. Which would be relevant in a thread which began with my comment about open borders in Europe.
No, that's not what I have been implying at all. I am not addressing it because I didn't say it. In some countries right wing extremists are banned from working in the civil or secret service. No what I am saying is that they will pass laws that restrict which nationalities are allowed into the country, similar to trump's muslim ban that was overturned only using actual laws instead of bullshit executive orders.
I haven't walked back anything. You're just incapable of actually understanding someone else's point of view.
How old do you think I am? I dare you to guess.
Yes, and laws determine who does and who dosen't get a visa. If the right wing can change immigration laws, then they can stop them from getting a visa potentially before they even board a plane. It's also pretty easy to tell where someone's passport is from once something like this is enshrined into law.
I am not saying it wouldn't have an impact. It would cost money to setup borders, and obviously would have some impact on tourism. Still nothing compared to what the UK did in leaving the EU. While it has cost us significantly we are still standing. The economy didn't collapse completely even with covid thrown in on top. Now that COVID-19 restrictions are all but over weathering that economic storm becomes a lot easier for other countries. You also have to think that places that might implement something like that ala Germany are in a stronger economic position to begin with. If they left both Schengen and the EU it would have a big impact on the EU, not just on Germany.
You didn't have to actually mention it. Schengen is literally an EU initiative. I couldn't care less if you actually said the words European Union. This is the second time I have gone over this if you remember.
To be clear I don't want anymore countries to leave the EU, nor do I want them to leave Schengen. I believe in immigration at least within the confines of Europe.
Honestly you are going in circles at this point. Half the points you are arguing against I have already given answers to, or are entirely made up in your head. Unless you show some degree of improvement in your next reply and actually start showing some fucking respect I am just going to block you and move on.
"They will pass"
Oh they will will they?
So to recap, you're in a thread that I started with "Europe enjoys free borders" and now you've gone all the way to "well actually if a country left the EU and Schengen and that country had American style executive orders and not a robust legal system and then instated a xenophobic check on people then yes, I would be correct in backing up the guy who explicitly said Western Europeans get treated differently, because these non-Europeans would be subjected to checks."
And you say you're not moving the goalposts of your argument? Interesting.
How old do I think you are? Mentally around 18-20, clearly. I hope your physical age matches.
"Schengen is literally a EU initiative"
And you argued that my comment about the meaning of my comment, in this thread, started by my comment, was "irrelevant".
I think you very much could. What I bet happened is you thought I had written "EU", which is why you used it specifically. Then when I pointed out I hadn't, you got flustered, because you're not accustomed to publicly admitting to mistakes.
"Some degree of improvement"
Rofl, thank for the giggles. Irony is enjoyable at this hour, after a few rums.
"I'm just going to block you and move on."
Ohno whatever will I do with my life if you don't want to talk to me because you have a hard time admitting to mistakes ohnooo.
You've not had an argument, at all. Europe still does enjoy open borders. We're not living in some fantasy future of yours where countries separate from the EU and Schengen and get far-right governments in total power.
So what is your argument exactly? "In a very specific hypothetical setting I came up with, non-Europeans coming into the Schengen area before having been able to apply for visas means Europe isn't 'Enjoying open borders'"?
Are you just mad that while you are European, you still don't have free movement like we do, because of Brexit?