cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18056637
source: https://x.com/MaraWilson/status/1288387415833317382
Capitalism sucks.
this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2024
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Again, it boils down to "define socialism".
Are we talking about USSR, Cuba and China-type socialism? Then they are all those things.
But if we're talking about Finland, Denmark Sweden and Norway-socialism, then I'm on board with socialism!
The problem is that none of the countries you listed were ever socialist. Finland, Denmark, Sweden and Norway are just capitalist countries with good social policies.
And as much as their propagandists wish they did, the USSR, Cuba and China never got past the state capitalism part of establishing socialism.
There has never really been a socialist country in the world, it's a bit of a moot point to go like "I like this kind of socialism but not this kind" when nobody ever got to see it...
That's my point. Socialism developed a broad meaning as time went on. Before, it started to mean simply demanding better worker's rights and conditions. But evolved to mean businesses owned by workers. Eventually, communism came into the scene and started to promote stateless society run by the proletariat. Then with so many people being turned off by the violence of communism, the more moderate left-- social democrats-- advocated to implement socialism through political and electoral mobilisation. But even then, as time progressed, social democrats abandoned their attempts to implement wholesale socialism and instead rein capitalism with sweeping regulations, instead of abolishing capitalism. Nonetheless, even though social democracy still embraced capitalism, the ideology is still considered under the wide tent of socialism but further right to it.
IIRC communism was the original Das Kapital version, and socialism came into being as "communism-lite" not really following Marx's ideal but giving some good things to workers
The term socialism was first coined in 1832, way before Das Kapital has been published in 1866. But before Karl Marx, socialism as we know it wasn't something that is fully solid despite the term already being coined. During 1848 liberal revolution, there were some who participated who'd be considered "socialists", but they don't necessarily know what they want.
That's really cool! Thanks for the context I hadn't known about that broader current of socialist thinking
Define the Nordic Model. It’s not socialism what they have. At best it’s a social democracy. They still run on a capitalistic system. Not to mention they are crawling to the right.
Social democracy is still considered under the umbrella term of socialism, but it's further right than most leftist ideologies.
I would strongly disagree with that.
Using socialist to mean "has social policies" is weird to me (and some of the Nordics aren't in a great state government-wise right now)
Are the Chinese antisemitic? I don't even think they qualify by Israel's stupid definition of the word, since they support the UN borders.
Socialism has a broad definition than antisemitism. Does it mean worker-run businesses? Businesses run by the government on behalf of workers? Or should society be organised by commune?
Anti-semitism is anti-semitism. Nevermind what Hasbara says and the Israeli state weaponising the term to their convenience, anti-semitism just means being bigoted against Jews.
Yes, but for other reasons.
So because some Chinese citizens believe conspiracy theories, you claim that the government itself is antisemitic? That's the weakest anti-China bash I've ever seen, dude.
Please quote me making that claim.
me: Are the Chinese antisemitic?
you: Yes
it was clear from the context that I wasn't talking about individuals who happen to be chinese, but the socialist chinese government
It was not clear to me. Do you think it's possible that not everything you say is universally understood by everyone to be what you mean to say?
You know, sort of like how it wasn't clear to you that I never said anything about the government?
None of those are socialism.