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this post was submitted on 13 Jul 2024
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I'm a flaming liberal, but I'm honestly revolted that, as I write this, your comment has a bunch of upvotes and no downvotes.
This man wants to do things that will make me and many people i love dead or suffering. How do you not understand how we could feel this way?
Because if you start justifying these kinds of things, they will eventually be turned against you and next you know it, your own political representative is being shot at because their opponent's supporters are feeling threatened just as you are (whether they are truly justified in feeling threatened or not, doesn't matter).
Democracy does not work with violence.
EDIT: I'm really curious about the downvoters: do you really think murdering your political opponents is justified? The goal is to vote out the fascists, not become fascists.
Republicans have already been justifying it. It was only days ago that a Republican said [paraphrasing] "theres a revolution already going on and it will be bloodless if the left doesnt interfere".
Republicans have already been justifying the death of BIPoC, trans kids, the queer community, Palestinians and anyone who opposes their genocide.... the list goes on. And its mealy mouthed liberals that always say shit like "oh but we shouldn't start justifying using violence, even in defence" from their positions of privilege.
WTF do you think is going to happen after November, whether Trump wins or not? They have been laying out the justification for using violence for 4 fucking years and you've slept through it, hoping its just some nightmare you'll wake up from.
How do you think your form of 'democracy' was achieved? You ballot box is awash with so much fucking blood that you would piss your pants if you had a tiny inkling. And most of it is from those who your country mercilessly crushed for you to have it. You dont live in a democracy. You live in a military/prison/pharma industrial corporatist state that masquerades in a trenchcoat as a democratic Republic
I'm not sure what you're saying - since they are justifying violence, you should too? That doesn't seem sustainable, unless your goal is a civil war.
EDIT for your edit: I am not from the US so I'm not sleeping through anything, I'm just watching from the sidelines. My form of democracy was actually introduced quite peacefully, all things considered. But that's neither here nor there.
Let's say you're in school, and you're assigned a lab partner and told the requirements of your project and that you need to compromise both individual's ideas to make it happen.
Every time you try to make a suggestion, they immediately say no and suggest something that isn't even graded for the project, and refuses to budge until you compromise. When you don't compromise, they threaten to tell the teacher that you're not compromising. As you try to hold your ground trying to get a good grade for both of you, they just keep doing whatever they want and making more threats to you: they'll take your lunch money, they'll beat you up after school, they'll pop your bike tires, etc.
When you tell the teacher, they tell you to stop overreacting and you need to learn to work with others. After school, your science partner punches you and says you better agree to XYZ tomorrow. You tell the teacher they hit you, and you're told you need to stop exaggerating and learn to compromise and work together. Every day that week, your science partner makes good on each threat after school, and every day you tell your teacher, they tell you to stop exaggerating and learn to play nice.
On the last day, you punch the kid back, really hit him, break his nose kind of punch. And you're punished: the teacher says you shouldn't have resorted to violence, your partner says they were the true victim in the project arrangement, you get a failing grade because everything you compromised on didn't meet the requirements, but your science partner still got an A and wasn't punished for anything he did all week because "the rules don't apply to them the same way, they're troubled/have a lot going on at home/whatever excuse."
That's the current state of US politics: Republicans are justified in any and everything they do because they're "special," but Democrats have to follow all of the rules, all of the time, even when the other side of the aisle refuses to even listen to them or the centuries/decades of legal precedent. And they, the Republicans, still win because that's just how the fucking system works.
Any bloodless revolution is done through an implicit threat of violence. It is just the losing side being smart about how they lose.
I tillegg om du er dansk, vil eg påpeike at Danmark mista eineveldet sitt då dei tapte Napoleonskrigane i 1814, som også var grunnlaget for Noreg sin uavhengigheit og demokratiske grunnlov.
Dude, who are the ones actually shooting at people? You so worried about what might happen that you can't see what's going on right in front of you.
The guy doing the shooting was a registered republican.
Yeah that's an interesting development. I have more questions now than I did before.
Anyone that's said it was a set up has been countered with arguments that to just nick someone ear is statistically impossible but they all treat it that trump is the brains behind the operation.
Now we all know that generally, he's as dumb as a bag of hammers and has cognitive issues (seems to be a second election based on old men with melting brains) so the real power lies behind the throne.
They might have taken the decision to set up a patsy & if he succeeds, ride the sympathy & somehow load all the blame onto Biden. If he doesn't, as we're seeing, trump rides the sympathy wave into the white house.
Another possible theory is that the kid appeared in a black rock commercial a few years ago and as BR have the contract to rebuild in Ukraine, that would be under threat if trump wins (he will pretty much throw them under the bus & let the reaction be his reason to split NATO). BRs main guys brother is Bidens right hand man. Similar to Haliburton with Iraq & it's former CEO being Bush jnrs VP.
To see such massive laxes in Trumps security and people pointing out the shooter to police at least 3 minutes before he fired, raises more questions and leaves it wide open to wild theories.
One thing for definite though: Biden will absolutely lose the election now.
It doesn't work if all parties aren't participating in good faith, either. What then?
I don't think that's true. Obviously you need elections that can be trusted (and despite everything I don't think elections results are being tampered with too significantly) but if there are bad faith actors (like Trump) then just... Get people not to vote for such an actor. Should be easy enough seeing as they're a bad faith actor right?
Well no, because people are poorly educated or brainwashed or scared or bigoted or hateful or afraid or all the other reasons that people in the US might vote for Trump. The problem is not Trump, the problem is the people voting for him. That's also why shooting him is a bad idea, it only entrenches his supporters even further (aside from the fact that shooting anyone is generally a bad idea).
Democracy requires nonviolence and an educated and informed population. The US fails on both accounts.
HAHAHAHA oh damn my dude go and read any history book.
Our "democracy" IS violent, it just isn't the ruling class experiencing the violence. Every day our society is upheld by violence. Violence over seas (231 years of war, support of genocide, coups, and interventions) and violence at home in the form of an increasingly more powerful police state.
This is just the direct forms of oppression like guns, bombs and jackbooted thugs. There are also sanctions that starve people and IMF loans that impoverish people. These all uphold our standards of living, the united states cannot exist with the impoverishment and exploitation of others.
Political violence ≠ fascism. Violence is what people turn to when they can't achieve what they need by merely talking and voting. Cf. every revolution, ever. Including the American one.
Killing fascists makes you a fascist?
The other man already does, for two years, things that made hundreds of thousands people die, get wounded, suffer, etc.
You are asking how people do not understand that you want Trump to be dead because he might hurt people you love, surely with your empathy skills you will be able to understand how people might hate Biden (and perhaps even want to see him dead as well) for what he did (and continues doing)?
Or is it only sad when the people you love are suffering? The other people do matter, right?
How you could hate him? I understand. I have a nonbinary kid, and I'm against what he stands for. But advocating for political assassination is just wrong. We don't punish people for crimes they haven't yet committed, and we don't support vigilantism.
We need to vote out fascist Republicans, not kill them.
You know Trump was already president once, right? It's not like it's a secret that he's anti-LGBTQ people.
We Made A List Of All The Anti-LGBT Stuff Trump Has Done As President from 2018, it includes
Saying it’s legal to fire workers for being transgender.
Arguing that it’s legal to fire workers for being gay.
Making transgender female prisoners live with male prisoners.
Telling the Supreme Court that shopkeepers can turn away LGBT customers.
Withdrawing protections for transgender students.
Refusing to investigate anti-transgender discrimination complaints in public schools.
Trying to kick transgender people out of the military.
Issuing a religious liberty policy.
Starting to rescind protections for transgender patients.
and their list goes on.
The Trump administration on Friday finalized a rule that would remove nondiscrimination protections for LGBTQ people when it comes to health care and health insurance from 2020
A controversial new rule that could allow homeless shelters to turn away transgender people based on physical appearance is the Trump administration’s latest attempt at restricting trans rights. also from 2020
I'm not sure it's possible to get a full picture of everything Trump did wrong, even if you narrow it down to specific topics like LGBT rights. A lot of these things aren't crimes, but that's only because he was the one writing the laws and policies.
And the solution to this problem is to murder him? That is not how democracy works. Besides, the problem is not Trump per se, but the people voting for him. That won't change just because Trump is dead. They will find some other bigoted candidate that will be just as bad if not worse.
People need to be educated and informed and know why it's a bad idea to vote for someone like Trump - that is the only sustainable way to fix things if you ask me. Murder and violence will only entrench people further on either side and drive people to even more extremes.
I honestly understand all that, and believe it's vitally important that he's defeated. But assassinating political rivals is literally a characteristic of fascism.
It literally isnt: fascism is capitalism in crisis and assassinations have gone on for most of human history, before the development of capitalism in the first place
Ah ok trolling. Nevermind. Move along.
Trolling?
It is sad to see this state of the divide in the US. Even if you are against Trump, you're not against him enough unless you want him dead. If you don't want him dead, you must be a troll. What a sad state this debate has reached.
Yea honestly I usually just avoid these kind of threads because any debate just seems pointless when it comes to US politics. I'm just glad I don't live there but it scares me how much their politics matter for the rest of the world when it is such a shit show.
I'm embarrassed about our country's politics, honestly.
Do you not realize how terrible it is that he missed? You of all people as a "flaming liberal" should be the most angry. This essentially secures trumps presidency, its the best thing that could have happened to his campaign.
First of all, that's bullshit. As I said in another thread:
Second, my political activism stops short of murder. Apparently that doesn't go far enough for you. That doesn't make me a troll.
Dont get me wrong, assassinations are stupid and rarely accomplish much of value. No single human is responsible for the state of our society, it is much more institutional than that. Only a dismantling of the current systems could actually inact change. HOWEVER, if trump was murdered I would gloat and I feel no shame in that.
Also them missing is gonna make MAGA people really annoying for a while
Yeah you are definitely a lib alright.
This comment section is so fucked!
You libs drone all the time in every media how the guy is an enemy of democracy, second coming of Hitler and needs to be stopped for any price. Yet you are "revolted" when someone taken it seriously.
The problem is not Trump, the problem is the people voting for him. Trump should be stopped through educated and informed voting, that's how democracy works.
Unfortunately the US is not known for its education and good unbiased information. But that is the underlying problem that needs to be fixed, and shooting Trump does nothing to fix that and will only serve to replace Trump with someone equally bad (or even worse).
Are you saying people should start shooting trump voters instead of trump?
What a way to deliberately misread what I am saying. Obviously not and I won't waste time on such a purposeful bad faith reading of what I said.
Democracy needs to be saved through democratic processes, not a lawless assassination attempt, otherwise it would be disingenious to want to protect it and its values.
I didn't even suggested you people should murder him*, just pointed how calling him enemy of democracy, second coming of Hitler and constantly droning about having to stop him is a call for stochastic terrorism, but you clearly understood it like this so the feedback checks out.
Also lmao fucking hell you call US president election mechanism "democratic"? And i won't comment on US "democratic values".
Wait
you aren't even Usian lmao you absolute clown.
*FYI Marxists-Leninists usually think political assassinations are futile adventurism, since it won't change the conditions that created people like Trump. Which won't mean we wouln't be glad if some ghoul get offed.
Haven't seen any prominent lib even use violent rhethoric in connection with pointing out Trump's dangerous plans for his second term, so I was surprised you bring up stochastic terrorism. The fact that Democrats are running a horrible candidate against him just shows that they don't take this seriously at all. Maybe that's what you tried to say in your first message.
I agree that democratic processes have little to do with US politics these days, but are you suggesting you can promote democratic values with anything outside living them (not that US politician do that, but in principle).
And it shouldn't matter where I'm from. The disaster that is the US empires fall is of global interest.
That's precisely how stochastic terrorism works, the big wigs never straight up call for it to have their hands clean just in case, for that they have their tabloids, their agitators, their media heads, their internet trolls. And btw Biden did said they need to put Trump into the bullseye (though he most likely didn't meant it literally, but on the other hand he promised to get rid of Nordstream back in the day and it happened).
In principle i do but i don't see liberal democracy as desirable version of it due to it being in service of the small minority of capitalists and their stooges exploiting workers, and as such the system works exactly according to its values. I just think those real values behind that system are abhorrent.
What SUPAVILLAIN said. If you're not part of the abovementioned minority or their stooge you should be dearly interested in end of the US empire.
tell us something we don't know