this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2024
997 points (97.2% liked)
Technology
59288 readers
4330 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
It is bullshit, and people will complain while continuing to use Windows so why should Microsoft care?
The thing is that they still hold an iron grip on most creative users as all their software doesn't yet work on Linux. So we are left with little to no choice between enduring windows and Linux fanatics screaming "Just find an alternative software and relearn everything you've spent years learning and perfecting in your preferred one"
It used to be somewhat better: Corel Linux and Creative apps existed...
Do those programs not work on WINE?
Lemmy folk forgetting that not every person cares enough to switch OSes.
If you ever work tech support even at a basic level, you'll see. It's not even boomers or genZ. I helped a grown ass human who was my age at 40yo how to install a Firefox extension.
Can y’all IT people please stop with the condescending “you don’t know how stupid people are about computers”, it seems like there is always one of you showing up in a comment thread to tell us that we can’t have the future literally all of us want including you all as well… because WE are too stupid and lazy about computers.
Were you as condescending to them in person as you are being in referencing them right now? Why is not knowing how to install a Firefox extension some indicator of foreclosure on the possibility of that person becoming computer literate along whatever metrics you define? There are plenty of smart people out there who can learn how to use a computer for very complex tasks who have just simply never learned about extensions for Firefox. This is a very feasible and normal reality.
Do you know how to change the oil on your car yourself? Do simple plumbing jobs? Could you run a classroom of middle schoolers and keep them all focused while keeping your eye on the shy sad kid in the back who tends to disappear if you don’t engage them? What about basic healthcare changes or cooking? What about outdoor work or basic small engine maintenance? Do you even know shit about the most basic species of trees in your backyard? Do you know the species of songbirds you often hear outside your window? Do you even pay attention to that? Do you know how to drive a dirt bike extremely fast on a rough dirt road? Do you know how to adjust for the violent explosive power of turbo lag in a car with a turbocharger so that torque oversteer doesn’t launch you off the road? Do you know how to sew and repair basic garments? To weave? Can you even fish? Like could you literally even just catch a fish to save your life right now if I handed you a fishing rod unassembled with no instructions?
My point is, don’t go looking for confirmation of how stupid or lazy people are or how limited their capacity is to evolve and grow by casting the shapes of their ignorance onto the floor and trying to read some magic language from that.
Maybe they don’t know because they are hopelesssly stupid, but maybe not? If they are intelligent and they don’t know computers then those are the perfect people to teach linux. Then it is their first language instead of windows, many linux distro are perfectly fine for this at this point.
See here is the bottom line, legions of IT people show up online always arguing they think they know that the average person is too dumb, lazy and uninterested in computers for Linux adoption to seriously take off in the personal computer market and challenge Microsoft, but y’all don’t know shit about humans. You are experts in computers who think that makes you experts in human potential.
Go take some theater classes (or get an degree in education) and get educated before you start drawing conclusions about people when you really haven’t spent time closely studying how people engage with their potential and what situations facilitate that in basic human interaction and framing of conversations (both literal and abstract).
I’m sorry if I snapped at you but I think it is existentially important to recognize here that we don’t know what people are capable of, you can’t know the essential capacity of people to change, don’t try to predict it. Focus on creating the material opportunity for change and the rest may follow depending on what people desire, no matter to us, we desire to create that positive opportunity for change because it is the right thing to do, not because we like the future growth charts of the things we believe are important and vital.
I agree with the sentiment of your post, but I think the examples are a bit too far fetched:
I'd wager most people use a computer/phone on a daily basis, which is why having a basic understanding of it seems like knowledge we should all have.
Inversely, most people don't need even have a turbo in their car and many don't even have a car, so any knowledge relating to that is probably useless for them.
That being said, even if someone is less knowledgeable in a field, respect should always be the baseline, as you illustrate, they're probably skilled in something else!
I'm saying that as an IT person that's aware that I'm making money mostly because people don't bother to learn all this, so in the end I don't mind that much.
I think you're missing the point here. It's more that people couldn't even be bothered to search up how to do something (that takes seconds) that they want to do first, and instead just rely on someone they think is an expert without putting in any effort at all.
Your examples don't really make sense either as a lot of these are paid professions for larger tasks that most people simply don't want to do. There's a huge difference in searching online "how to install a Firefox extension" vs "how to do an weave", etc.
End of the day, the average person doesn't care and if they truly did they'd have the initiative to have just researched it and done it on their own.
Bringing it back to the whole thing about Linux, can you imagine how frustrating it would be to have to help debug a user's Linux installation when they already need help with installing a browser add on? I work with tech and Linux on a daily basis and I already find it frustrating doing it for myself (fuck Nvidia drivers). No way am I gonna recommend it to someone else.
Exactly. Look at Reddit/Lemmy where people ask questions instead of searching, when they could've gotten their answer faster by searching using their question as a query instead of posting it (i.e. LMGTFY). People are lazy in very weird ways, some are happier to call tech support than read an article, even if that call takes more than 2x as long as the search.
Are you honestly going to still claim at this late date of 2024 that a decent popular linux distro is actually going to be MORE of a headache than Windows?
....?
Have you tried Windows recently?
I'm not sure why that is so hard to believe. I use Ubuntu and Windows at work daily and Windows at home. I know the challenges of both and Windows at worst just annoys me with them forcing the new Outlook app on me. Everything else just works. Plays games amazingly, Visual Studio is uncontested, syncs nicely with my Android phone and I have no driver issues whatsoever. Don't have to go diving into the command line to change settings either.
The only time Linux works perfectly for me is on my Steam Deck and that's entirely because Valve has handled all the driver issues for us on that hardware.
Outlook is atrocious what on earth are you talking about? Just trying to use it at work it is so frustrating and the UI is horrendous for everything. Truly even basic things like trying to read when a meeting actually starts just from looking at the calendar is a headache, and because all of this is proprietary unlike with Linux, tough luck, that is how things are and you can’t do shit to change it. Neither can an experienced computer user trying to help you.
I am sorry you really don’t have an accurate handle on the state of things anymore, I think you are stuck in your ways and stressed out by life and you don’t realize that emotion and lack of mental plasticity is leading to you assume everyone else is as stuck in their ways as you (including your future self when you are able to feel less overworked and stressed).
Windows is atrocious at this point, search doesn’t work and purposefully confuses new computer users about where is being searched and what is being searched. Ads pop up everywhere in the UI and will continue to spread like a terminal cancer in the UI.
Search on windows also just sucks and takes ages with the default settings (an inexperienced computer user will be using).
The file manager on windows in most marquee windows programs like word, excel etc.. all open up an entirely different file manager half way through the process of saving a file in perhaps the most insane UI pattern to keep from the mess that was Windows 8 (even though I actually really liked the core idea at first).
Windows is buggy AND windows is constantly playing head games with its user by trying to force them to use the edge browser. It is very very confusing to a new computer user what the hell is even going on.
I mean, Windows illegally changed the entire operating system countless people had without getting consent because it would look good for their numbers.
Seriously you are WAYYY out of your league if you are going to claim a nice Linux distribution on good hardware with good driver support (such as some dells or thinkpads) is categorically wayyy worse than trying to use a windows laptop in 2024….
…please get your head out of the sand :)
I mean do you want to get into the massive security vulnerability at a tactical and strategic level that Microsoft’s co-pilot represents? This is endgame for business security, Windows is in a worse spot than it has been in probably a decade at least and they deserve it. IT people and corporations have to seriously wonder if Windows even cares about following the law, which makes trusting Windows for the software relied upon by their company a complex question indeed…..
It used to be that Linux was better ideologically because it gave you agency over your computer, but now things have gotten so much worse that the reason is practical and no longer ideological.
I don't think you're talking about the Outlook I am talking about because I'm talking about the Outlook Mail and Calendar apps, not the Office ones. And that's fine and dandy about proprietary software and all but frankly I haven't really seen any non-proprietary mail apps that look aesthetically pleasing. But that's besides the point, it's a matter of personal preference when it comes to visuals after all.
You don't have to come here and assume you know everything about me simply from my choice of OS and invalidating my experiences with personal attacks no less. If your rant here is trying to convince me or anyone else who is reading that we should abandon Windows because of the reasons, you have stated, you are failing terribly I'm afraid. Not everyone has such high standards as you have and it's frankly patronizing for you to think that I or anyone else have not considered these options when it affects our workflow. If anything, people reading this are gonna be dissuaded of Linux because if this is the kind of tone and experience we're going to get when we try to, well, it's a lot less stressful staying away from Linux.
It's somewhat concerning that you have such a strong obsession over the topic that you would go and whether intentionally or unintentionally offend people and I hope that you are a much more pleasant person to converse with outside of this topic or even this site.
I'd also like to add, nowhere did I ever mention using laptops. All my experiences are with desktops that I had a hand in building from scratch. So I'm not sure what you're even getting at with those assumptions.
Have a good day sir.
... I am not just talking about little details and preferences here? Windows products are increasingly broken and dysfunctional at every level. Features don't work, features are randomly changed and broken, nothing is consistent, core features of the computer are made opaque, any given Linux package manager is about 1000000 times more trustable than the ad ridden, sketchy, bloatware filled Windows store where you have to hunt for actually useful and trustable tools. One of my old bosses had his work windows computer update to a new windows OS without really asking him (technically it did, but then it just kept scheduling an OS upgrade until he missed it). It didn't break his computer, but he had thousands and thousands of hours of cad drafting work on that computer and Windows could have EASILY fucked up in the update process, or the old software we were using could have EASILY not been compatible. Windows basically flipped a coin for whether they were going to utterly grind my bosses business to a halt and cause utter panic or just have the computer update. This is not "user friendly" software design, this is not "easy to use software made by an extremely competent software company".
....because for 99% of people who are going to be using a computer for light email, research and text editing work they are going to be using a laptop? I don't really understand what about my argument doesn't apply to windows prebuilts that have good driver support for linux...?
I think it is completely reasonable to be upset when someone is condescendingly foreclosing the possibility that something can happen when the evidence they are using for it is outdated and they refuse to update it in their heads. The only response at that point when someone refuses to re-evaluate their position and continues to "speak for the group" when they really don't represent the group anymore is to make it even clearer that they don't speak for a group, and I am sorry if my method offended here, I believe your heart is in the right place but please stop trying to tell us about how stupid and unwilling people are to learn new things. Please please please just keep your mouth closed, it doesn't help anyone, period. Even if you were right, there would be nothing to change in our actions as it would just be hopeless to even try?
This isn't 2015, a good Linux distribution is as polished, easy to use, and easy to explain to a newbie computer user as Windows is. If you aren't ready to accept that shrugs I mean fine but don't push your outmoded narrative into conversations that might actually convince someone who doesn't know about Linux that it isn't worth checking out as a serious alternative. You are actively doing damage to the future of this software movement by dismissing it offhand like this.
Excellent rant, I hate that doomer mindset. Old people used DOS, kids figure out vpns to get on gambling sites. People aren't stupid they just haven't had a reason to learn, or didn't have someone to make them care.
Awesome post. As a former IT person who has worn many other hats over the years, I couldn't agree with you more.
Right, so if they don't care they're not going to complain very much about it. If they are going to complain what are they going to do about it? If it's "just complain and nothing else" then Microsoft doesn't care.
So are you volunteering to install Linux on everyone's machines when they get a new computer? And answer their tech support questions when they inevitably need that one program?
I'm volunteering to install Linux on my machine instead of just bitching about Microsoft while continuing to use Windows.
I don't see how pointing out the reality of "if you're not going to stop using Windows then Microsoft doesn't care what you think" somehow makes me responsible for every computer in the world.