Idk how to embed audio to Lemmy but imagine it playing on the background lol
Lazlo bayne - I'm no superman
full version with credits
this post was submitted on 12 Jun 2024
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Oh, ok. So no problem, then.
I mean, if all of them are like that then it's a fundamental, intrinsic problem of growing up and learning things and there's nothing to be done. No point complaining.
But I don't think you mean that, to be perfectly honest.
Not true. The state of the art of education is in a certain place where education systems that are doing the best anyone is doing are still doing so with ableist discrimination forward. Those looking to the "most successful" education systems will be imitating these practices as well. The current best is far from the best it could be though, and things could be changed radically to remove that ableist discrimination.
Oh, that one is unexpected. You've managed to blend both "if it's not perfect it's just as bad as ours" and "nobody has ever done it right" in a single argument.
That's kind of impressive, actually.
Again, who are we talking about and what problems are we identifying? Because I find it hard to believe that in a whole-ass planet where hundreds of countries and private institutions have their own distinct take on how to do this (never mind all the ones that came before the current ones) this is simultaneously simply impossible to get right but also so easy that it can be condensed in a one panel comic strip-slash-one paragraph social media post.
I definitely never said that there aren't education systems that are better than other education systems because none are perfect, or implied that at all.
And the mistake you've made here is assuming that conceptually, something not being done correctly anywhere currently means it's impossible. That idea basically negates the idea of human progress. There are lots of things currently being done that, in the past, were tried and failed simultaneously by many institutions across the planet before it was solved and the solution proliferated.
Education that is applied equitably to people who have different needs is a problem that, if solved in the theoretical realm (still doubt), definitely hasn't been solved at the implementation step widely anywhere. I don't think you could name a single country where education outcomes are equitable for ND people with respect to their NT counterparts with similar base capabilities. But it's definitely possible.
No, I'm not saying things can't be improved, I'm saying that the blanket statements being thrown around are reductive and ethnocentric.
The idea that your state of the issue is the high bar for it is reductive and ethnocentric. The idea that your activism or proposal is the cutting edge and will set the solution set to proliferate is reductive and ethnocentric. This is a common pattern in western, and especially US activism, and it can get really annoying.
It's fine to want to make things better, but some care to acknowledge that not everybody is in the same place structurally and not every solution may be universal seems prudent and when that framing isn't top of mind for people I tend to notice.
Can you name an education system globally that has solved the problems of diverse needs in education, and especially the type of neurodiverse needs that these types of memes generally reference? Because I do agree that activism that ignores diverse needs across a cultural and national axis is a problem, but it's only a problem that applies here if there's a place on Earth where this doesn't apply.
I used to have a sort of wishful thinking-esque belief that there were better places for the education of neurodivergent children. When I was much younger I thought it must be one of the other local districts near me. Then I thought maybe another US state or western country. Then I finally tried to think globally. But I've yet to hear a description, in all of that desperate searching, of a widespread approach to education that actually addresses these problems or even considers them problems. I'm open to being wrong though. Can you show me one? Can you point at even one? Because if my cultural bias has blanked one out I really want to know which.
"Solved"? What is "solved" in that scenario? Neurodivergent kids not having to deal with being neurodivergent?
I can point at different approaches to the issue in different places and take notice of different outcomes, but even now, having kids around me who do need support due to specific issues that I won't share here, and having received that support in different ways in different countries... I don't even know what the "solved" status is.
I want them to be happy and get better at the things where getting better is an option, and I want them to be accepted and supported on the things where it's not. There's a reason why those kids are being supported by professionals and not just going with whatever my best guess is, and I'm certainly not assuming that our local answer is either the best or the worst, or even that there is a single, blanket right answer, for that matter.
The ethnocentrism is an issue in general, not just in this issue, but I disagree that it's only a problem if there is a marvellous utopia where the problem is fully resolved. Maybe that assumption is part of the ethnocentrism problem itself, I don't know.
Systemic ableism is the problem, not "having to deal with being neurodivergent". Otherwise there would be no "solved" state. Though a solved state is pretty easy to get a decent definition of: A state wherein neurodivergent people have a equal outcomes in each area with respect to their neurotypical counterparts with the same base aptitude in the same subject matter, regardless of the differences in the path needed to realize whatever that aptitude is.
Now, that said, that only describes something that is lacking. I haven't even heard of an education system that doesn't specifically punish neurodivergent behavior, which, worse than something that is missing everywhere, is a negative that is present everywhere. So let's call eliminating this a compromise solve.
As far as the ethnocentrism argument and it only being relevant if it's solved somewhere, well, I guess the poor construction of that would be: "The ethnocentrism argument is only valid if there is an example of the problem being completely solved." which I guess you sort or addressed effectively and I may have sloppily implied by accident. What I really was trying to say though, was, "The ethnocentrism argument only applies to this specific observation if you have an example of a school system to which the observation does not apply." which I still stand by and still doubt you have such an example.
I disagree with that last characterization. I think the ethnocentrism only applies if there is an example to which that observation applies less than to the reference example.
Because that was my original question, if you go back to that: which system is the cartoon supposed to depict?
Because if the answer is "all of them", then there is no way to define a gradient that we want to be moving towards. The movement is going to be relative to a starting point. So I don't feel I have a onus to prove that there is a system to which the (very generic and simplistic) observation doesn't apply. My point stands if it doesn't apply to all systems equally or to the same degree.
The way we do education is based on fundamentally flawed concepts, from the grading systems we use to the clear design towards specifically (neuro)typical and more privileged children. This is just true everywhere. Childhood psychology/developmental psychology and education are pretty complicated and poorly understood by most of the public, even educators. And obviously significant social biases also play a part in the education system.
Rich kids without ADHD generally do far better in school and get into far better colleges or professions initially than poor kids or kids with ADHD... there are exceptions, but for the most part, almost all of the kids that fail school either have some form of disability (often times an undiagnosed disorder) or are underprivileged in some way (like being poor). Generally those kids would excel in a better environment, hell usually the "gifted" classes are primarily neurodivergent kids in elementary/middle school (or equivalents).
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
the grading systems we use
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This is just repeating what I originally said, but hear me out. Who is "we"?
I mean, this very nice lady even says at around the 35 minute mark that "there are plenty of schools that don't grade their students and have great college acceptance rates", which makes me think she thinks her "we" may not be your "we". She definitely doesn't seem to think that "we" is "all of them".
So who is "we"?
"We" is most of the schools in a majority of education systems in the world. At least, a majority of kids in most education systems are subject to this kind of education. Especially in the western world and East Asia where education is widespread and well-established, and where typical grading is seen as god.
Yeeeah, I'm not gonna cut through the ethnocentrism here, am I? Because that sure sounds like it means "the US and all the places I kind of assume work just like the US but don't actually know in any detail". Which is the exact type of discourse I was calling out at the top of this thing. If I'm honest, the implicit assumption you're making that the countries that don't work just like what you know don't do so because education there isn't "widespread and well-established" is kind of icky, depending on how much benefit of the doubt one gives to your "western world" blanket.
To be clear, I don't have a particularly conservative take on this issue and I certainly have objections to the current state of the education system(s) I know. But they're not the same ones you mean, not for the same reasons and certainly the concepts, issues and solutions the nice lady in the video is calling out would not really apply.
Sorry but do you know nothing of schooling in Japan, South Korea, or China? Or Germany or anywhere else in Europe? Would you be so kind as to point out a country where the part about education primarily rewarding being neurotypical, encouraging perfectionism/performance/competition over learning/personal success (and usually rewarding being privileged but not always) doesn't apply? Where would you say has an "equal" or "fair" education system? The education systems don't have to work the same way to have very similar and related fundamental flaws.
When I say "western world" I am using the common definition that includes South America and Eastern Europe. I suppose a better grouping to use would be primarily countries with a "medium, high, or very high" development index, considering those countries are likely to have a decently high rate of education with at least a somewhat consistent and functional education system. Considering that even includes war-torn theocratic dictatorships, I'd say it's a pretty lenient metric.
I have, in fact, gone through the school system in some of the places you mention, yeah. Had people with very specific special needs close to me go through several of them, too. Had people close to me be teachers in some of them for decades as well. Some of them provided better support than others, most had some type of system that was definitely focused on specific support based on individual needs. Some have changed during my lifetime, because there are different opinions on what achieves that better.
And here's the rub, I'm still not an expert. I still wouldn't make sweeping generalizations about it. I absolutely don't claim to have all the answers or see obvious flaws with obvious solutions. Certainly not assume the examples I know are close enough to every other country to not make a difference.
But hey, that's just me.
Considering you're both American and a native English speaker, I somehow doubt that you have gone through primary or secondary schooling in East Asia, let alone anywhere outside of North America... regardless of that, it is very justified to make such generalizations considering how a majority of education is organized – most have very similar structures and are scaled-grading based with the objective to get a "passing grade" and often times those who get the highest grades get the most opportunities immediately post-education (generally college or better entry into jobs). Teaching is usually not one-on-one, and classes are mostly targetted towards neurotypical children.
Additionally, regardless of what country you go, it is a fact that the government and culture is extremely ableist, and likely has some form of rampant classism (although this is less universal than ableism). Systematic and cultural biases like that undeniably seep into the education system in every country. Your assumptions that education systems being ableist are probably not the default or widespread phenomenon really hinge on "being well-informed on the complexities of childhood/education psychology" and "proper disability awareness and accomodation" being one of the default states. It's not, and in reality it takes significant amounts of resources and scientific approaches being pooled into specifically accomodating for neurodivergent and/or disabled and underprivileged children.
I am neither American nor a native English speaker, but thanks, I'm gonna take that as a compliment. The rest of my point stands.
I don't think non-Americans would primarily be talking about specific American cities, things they experienced in America, primarily American cultural icons, and American politics while also calling American Democrats "leftists" among other American-centric ideas, but I suppose anything's possible isn't it. But that's just from a few seconds of scrolling.
Not that you can't know anything about other education systems because of that – I just find it hard to believe.
Hey, you may be shocked by this idea, but sometimes people live in places where they weren't born for a while.
But also, even if they didn't, it turns out you can't exist in the world, let alone the Internet, without being constantly exposed to an absolute firehose of US-generated media, including all those very specific references. And, by extension, we also have to be concerned about you weirdos not messing up without having any agency on the outcomes of your bizarre political system (so don't screw it up for us this November, thanks in advance).
That's the entire impetus of my intervention in this thread, the ongoing frustration of seeing Americans, both on the left and the right, be constantly convinced that everything everywhere works just like it does around them and that nobody has thought about it or come up with different solutions or had different needs elsewhere.
That... would make you American. I'm confused on how you think you can live and work in America for a long period of time while participating in the culture and not be American...
Regardless, you definitely could have gone through a different country's primary/secondary education system, so how about I ask this: Which continent was it on? Out of, say, North America (including Central America and the Caribbean), South America, Europe (including Greenland, Turkey, and the Caucasus & Russia), Africa (let's say this includes the Middle East even though most of it's geographically Asian), Asia, and Oceania. Or which continents if you'd be so kind, since you say you went through multiple countries'.
Holy crap, does that have strong "shit Americans say" Reddit energy. The friends I have who actually wanted to live in the US had to worry about getting a green card for a decade, but I apparently qualified for a passport after week two. I mean, I never wanted to move there permanently, even when offered, but it's good to know it would have been that easy.
Aaanyway, if you wanted to reveal my place of origin you probably could, given how you're fond of digging through my post history. Go see if you can put together the clues. Or don't, because if I did want to share that I would have at this point, don't you think?
Turns out that I don't feel like passing whatever litmus test for "foreignness" you may have, my hopefully accidentally exceptionalist friend. The fact that you're not seeing how this entire line of questioning is getting very weird is definitely making my point and should absolutely give you pause.
So basically what you're saying is that you're North American and haven't had any education outside of North America, yet you're trying to make it sound like you have so you can pretend you have any experience to disprove anything others say about non-western education systems. Because there is absolutely 0 possible way to pin a person's place of origin down based on the continents they went to school in unless they're Australian or something. That answers all the questions I need to know about.
Your argument basically boils down to "you're making generalizations and assuming other countries' education systems are just like the US'!" while making the assumption that other education systems are completely fundamentally different to the US' and have no similarities (which it's pretty easy to find out that most other countries do use the same general scale for grading and do have a massive problem with ableism especially with neurodivergent kids). And making crazy comments about how saying other countries have a problem with grading systems and ableism = ethnocentrism? Like you have provided absolutely 0 counterexamples other than vaguely saying "I know people who aren't American" without any specificity which is pretty sus. Do you just assume the entire developing & underdeveloped world has to be "backwards" from the US or something? That would seem pretty ethnocentrist.
If your counterexample is that in multiple of the countries you went to school in the education system didn't work like that, the obvious point is going to be "where was it that education didn't work like that?". I would hope you'd realize that before you even brought up your own location to make a point in the first place.
I had genuinely never struggled to convince somebody I'm not American, this is amazing.
Specifically American, too, because in your scenario being British or Irish wouldn't have worked. I'm slightly relieved that you at least considered Australia eventually.
OK, how about this, I'll give you a little bit. I shouldn't because screw you, you don't have a right to my life history, let alone to evaluate my cultural background against your arbitrary weird anglocentric preconceptions, but this is too fascinating to drop now.
So when I went to school our system was very into integration. I went to the same classroom as kids who had Down syndrome and cerebral palsy until I was maybe eleven, twelve? I genuinely don't know what Americans call that grade or year, for us it would have been what, 4th, 5th? They've changed the structure and numbering now, so it's hard to keep track. One of them had a habit of standing up in the middle of boring classes and start to randomly narrate sports matches out loud (soccer, specifically, because again, not American). We all thought that was awesome and hilarious, and thought he was cool and mostly were kinda nice to him as a result. He was a nice kid. I see him walking around town sometimes still.
That memory generally endeared me to integrating kids in classes where it makes sense, but I've heard enough counterpoints from professional educators about the uses of keeping kids with special needs in smaller classes to get more specific help that I don't have a strong opinion about it. My understanding is that consensus on that one is reversed, and the kids in my life now that have specific needs are either in dedicated support groups or getting individual tutoring during the integrated classes. This is all public school I'm talking about.
Now, here's the thing, I actually don't know if that transition could have happened in the US because, again, I am not American and I've never been to school in the US. I assume all the tropes in movies aren't fully accurate and Mean Girls and Dangerous Minds aren't documentaries, but who knows? My point is that I don't, and I'm not gonna be prescriptive about it or assume that everybody else's experiences are the same as my own.