this post was submitted on 23 Apr 2024
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Looks like a navel-gazing USA thing. Here in Europe I cannot imagine that there's many companies who'd fire workers for protesting or tells them to shut up forever.
Here in Sweden, firing an employee for giving an opinion on company policy is illegal. Just look at the Tesla union wars.
That's not actually true. Even in Sweden, employees can be fired for misconduct and what constitutes misconduct is a complex matter. But more importantly, in the Tesla case, those employees are on strike which is a different issue.
They can be fired for misconduct, yes, What makes you think protests or giving opinons on work related mtter, possibly supoorted by a union, would be interpreted as "misconduct"? Can you give an example of a case like that where misconduct was having an issue with selling products to war criminals or similar?
Publicly labeling customers as "war criminals" is misconduct and will get you fired anywhere in the world, yes. Stop pretending you misunderstand this simple fact.
Can you show that in Sweden?
If not maybe you could stop pretending to misunderstand a simple fact.
That's stupid. How can I show you an instance of someone talking against a customer publicly is Sweden? Calming that employees cannot get fired for damaging the business in any country is completely false. Thinking that the situation in Sweden with Tesla is similar to what happened in Google is completely ignorant.
I understand simple facts extremely well. The problem is that you're trying to make this situation into something it isn't
Can you give me the exact law that says this would be the case in Sweden?
These are the government guidelines.
You should be more careful on how you let information reach you. You have to be pretty ignorant to think that there exists a country which doesn’t allow business to fire employees.
So yes, again we agree, there is a law of misconduct. Can you demonstrate any reasonable example where an employer in Sweden was fired on such grounds because they protest peacefully against their own company making an unethical deal with a questionable government or the like?
Also your tone is just shit.
Can you show me an instance where a Swedish employee did what you claim? I showed you that it is within the legal framework. That should be enough.
We both agree that misconduct is a thing. We disageew on what miscobduct means. I hope that makes it clear.
Have you read that article btw?
I am not sure what exactly you are asking me to show.... in Sweden (as said in the link you posted and as I already know by actually working in Sweden for years) is that you have to warn workers of msiconduct and they can appeal your decision if it's dumb as fuck (like what Google did). Do you have any reason at all to believe that workers in Sweden would be fired in a similar way? I don'y think so. This shit does not happen here, and there are mechanisms that give employees and unions power to stop it.
Like read this shit:
so do you have any case whatsoever that shows that this shit would fly at a Swedish company? One where it was legally challenged at least? If no, then what exactly is your point?
PS: sorry can't be bothered to fix spelling lol. Your tone was so crap that it even put me off trying to explain my point. You cannot fire people in Sweden for doing whay those employees at Google did.
The fact that I don't have an example doesn't mean that it can't happen. It just means that it hasn't yet or that I don't know of it. Just because you can't show me an example of an atom bomb attack in Sweden or of me getting punched in the face in 2024 does not mean that these things can't happen, does it? This whole thread started with people saying that this can't happen in Europe. It absolutely can. And having worked in various corporations across Europe (though not Sweden specifically), I can tell you that they all have clauses in the work contract saying that you can be fired for conduct while representing the company, especially for conduct in relation to customers. So if Google employees would block the headquarters in Stockholm to convince the company to stop trading with Israel because it's a genocidal state, I guarantee you they'd not be safe from disciplinary measures including termination.
I want to say I understand your point. You sre saying misconduct laws are vague and that allows employers to fire employees for BS. You also seem to think those Google employees committed some kind of 'misconduct'. I disagree.
The issue in my opinion is that you are basing it on the law sounding vague... and ignoring the part where employees would receive warnings that first and foremost makes it clear to them that such a thing is regarded as misconduct and could lead to.termination... and you are ignoring that in is able to appeal the decision with the help of a union representative. Then you are ignoring all free speech laws and the fact that this is not a common culture or occurrence in Sqeden .
I work in Sweden and have read the law a million times. I also raised problems at work and challenged authority and was never fired nor sent to HR or anything like that. There are laws in Sweden that act as a safety net to prevent employers from firing a person for such trivial shit. Has this ever happened? If no one seems to interpret this as misconduct in Sweden, then where is your claim coming from?
So allow me to rephrase the question to you in a more civil way: aside from the "law being vague", do you have reason(s) to believe that staging a sitdown as protest in Sweden or having coffee and a chat with people staging a reasonable peaceful and coordinated protest in Swede would get you fired?
This may be the case for some European countries (I have no idea and won't speak our of my asa about places I don't know much about) but not Sweden. If you never worked here, then you may not understand how Swedish law and unions work exactly with cases like this. I am quite thankful to live in this kind of society where my employer cannot fire me just because they would rather fund the literal mutilation of thousands of children and be complicit in international human rights violations.
And for the example you cited: as someone who has worked in Stockholm specifically and works there now: no, that would not be grounds to fire you, and you can appeal by law and get help from your union representative.
If you are unaware of Swedish law, I would advice that you avoid generalizing European laws to Sweden
I feel we need to discuss this first, because I completely disagree with you:
Free speech has nothing to do with this situation. Nothing guarantees you there will be no consequences if you use your place of business for personal agenda. That's not what free speech is about.
I'm sorry, but you're misclassifying the situation. Abusively occupying an office is not peaceful or reasonable. It is an attention forcing action and it can have consequences. They weren't arrested for their views on the genocidal Israel state, they were arrested for being in a place they're not legally allowed to be in. And they weren't fired for their views on Israel, they were fired for criticising a company customer from the position of an employee
I think you misread Swedish law and are (on purpose?) misreading what happened at Google. I have nothing more to say other than the above in my previous comments. Have a nice day.
You should be aware of the fact that Google & the others have offices in Europe and they have the same policy here too. These type of policies fit well within the legal framework in most EU countries. And I guarantee that people would get fired over protests disrupting the workplace if found unwarranted.