this post was submitted on 24 Feb 2024
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Not in the trolley scenario you don't. But in the situation it represents, how do you, personally, plan to "burn the trolley and rip up the tracks" before November?
Fomenting electoral apathy in the conscientious portion of the population just before a close election empowers the candidate preferred by the non-conscientious portion of the population. I'm all for criticisms, but leftist infighting, and refusing to "big-tent" with neo-liberals in election years, only benefits the right.
The opposition learned how to play the game and move things incrementally towards their goals. Letting idealism obstruct pragmatism is only making things worse, even when your ideals are right. Play the game or lose.
So what you're saying is we have a terrible undemocratic system that was founded on the ideals of oppression and genocide, and that there's no hope of fixing it. Got it.
Fuck the fascist United States.
Never said that, but smugly refusing to participate because it's flawed is not an effective path toward fixing it. Conservatives have been gutting civil liberties by patiently toeing the line and playing by the rules of the game to develop their position over decades. Progressives have been splitting vote (or just straight up not voting) because they let their ideals prevent them from compromising on winning strategies.
Ideals and principles are great guiding stars to aim toward, and I desperately hope to live to see fully automated luxury gay space communism, but refusing to vote for the lesser evil isn't getting us any closer. It's just bringing us closer to an actual fascist United States.
Who's "smugly refusing" though? I'm bristling at the suggestion that a sitting president should be immune from criticism, especially one who is ACTIVELY supporting genocide!
I've got bad news for you about us. We're already a fascist state. Yes, it can get worse, but just the existence of agencies like ICE and our entire fucked up history paints a grim picture of what we are.
So if you're telling me my only choices are either a genocidal maniac or a slightly less genocidal maniac, then I'll tell you we do not have a democracy. That is NOT a democracy that you're describing. You admit this, right?
Only incredibly privileged or naive people are able to view this system as 'flawed'. It works perfectly.
Every system is flawed. Some flaws are within acceptable tolerances. "Acceptable" is a largely subjective measure.
Supporting genocidal actions is not an acceptable tolerance.
It’s a hard line and if you people want to support someone that does something like that, no matter which side or on then we deserve whatever fucking comes to us.
Arm yourselves, and be ready, learn how to grow plants and how to hunt.
Between potatoes and greens and beans. You can survive for a while on a nutritious fucking diet even when shit starts gets scarce.
It’ll be hard, but we will make it.
I’m not even suggesting for prepper shit, just stuff that was common knowledge less than 100 years ago that we forgotten because of the society that we have now.
Hell, I own grow bags that I could hang out in an apartment window and grow stuff 20 feet off the ground with no balcony
Before he went to jump down my throat, I mean, no one really knows where their food comes from anymore or how to throw their own.
I am making no assertions other than that when I talk about the things that society has forgotten because of the way it is now
Yeah, my husband and I have talked about the idea of moving to rural Mexico. Not that things are great in that nation either, but it's a warmer climate where my relatives live with lots of potential for growing food, keeping chickens, drawing fresh water, and being able to survive even if things go down. Maybe even get a group of people together to make it work.
Honestly, I'd not be sorry to see a nation like the US crumble, but I'd feel concerned for the people who would suffer and die as a result.
I don't find a system that provides me with only two choices -- one being a candidate who actively persecutes immigrants and Native people and denies people basic rights like housing and healthcare while sending arms to genocidal regimes, and the other being the same but also wanting to establish a theotratic autocracy -- to fall within the acceptable range. I'd probably not listen to anyone who finds this situation remotely acceptable.
The "why should I vote" brigade are just making excuses for their laziness. Slacktivism is not a benefit to society like they think.
Show me where they are in this thread. They're not here.
That sounds like someone talking to the police.
Lol okay, but this so-called "why should I vote" brigade is STILL not here. Sounds like a strawman to me, because ~~zero~~ 1 (one) users in this thread are saying not to vote.
Update: One user referenced not voting as a strategy to affect change, but then said that now is not the time for such a strategy
I did, sorry. But it has to be done in big enough numbers, which would not be possible right now. So, vote and start organizing for the next elections.
I made that comment before you showed up, though. I think there is an argument to be made not to vote, but I agree that now isn't the time.
Regardless, that's not what this post was about, but conservative and centrist Democrats will literally argue against anything except the points I'm trying to make, because they know that it is accurate to criticize our sitting president of multiple atrocities, including supporting a genocidal regime.
It's appalling that any criticism leveled at an actual sitting president gets summarily dismissed by so many people. Sometimes interacting with such people genuinely makes me feel like not voting, because what even is the point, if we can't so much as pressure our sitting president to do better? It's absurd to me.
I can literally admit that I intend to vote for Biden, but that doesn't matter. These people demand COMPLETE dedication to their ~~sports team~~ party, including holding any party member immune from criticism. Their "lesser of two evils" schtick is wearing thin. I've been around since the 80s, and it's been the same routine my whole life.
Absolutelly agree, I guess thats the power of indoctrination :c
Yes I only replied that so you wouldnt get a "gotcha" reply from someone else.
Your views on these democracies match mine perfectly, I think, and you express them way better than I could ever do so I didnt want to "hurt" your arguments any further.
I don't think you could hurt my arguments because the naysayers in threads like these only come to scream at people made of straw. I can only hope that some of what we say might sink in for some people once they've had time to process it, but anyone who's willing to see other humans as expendable for a campaign's sake are not very likely to be persuaded, in my experience and opinion.
Apparently, they're even reporting me to my mod and instance admin. They really don't want to discuss our nation's complicity in genocide.
I feel that we are of a like mind though, and I appreciate that you're here. It makes me feel at least slightly hopeful for the future