this post was submitted on 07 Aug 2023
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Even if you think what you would say is obvious, please add. This is genuinely something I think makes sense regarding local bus routes given the longevity of light rail and how infrequently routes change, but I also suffer from confirmation bias, so I'm hoping for reasons this would be a terrible idea but obviously would prefer reasons it would be an even more amazing idea than I thought.

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[–] the_sisko@startrek.website 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

With the caveat that this only applies to my city, San Francisco... I prefer buses. SF horribly mismanages its "trams"* where they run at ground level through the streets. They must follow all stop signs and traffic rules. They don't even get signal priority. So it's a quite jarring experience to get into a train underground, exit the tunnel to the street, and begin stopping every block and waiting at red lights.

Fact of the matter is that, if you're going to be treated like a car, it's better to be more maneuverable as a bus. Buses can avoid double parked cars, and have a fighting chance of squeezing through a gridlocked intersection. With a bus lane, they can use it but they don't have to, where's trams are trapped in a traffic lane (frequently the centermost lane) while idiots make (frequently illegal) left turns.

* Muni light rail - K, J, L, M, N, T, F

[–] Not_mikey@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is the problem with all trams/streetcars, by definition they run at street level. If anything sf's are a bit better since they have underground sections. They don't have an advantage of speed, that can only be gained by getting right of way which is far more expensive and then it's not really a good comparison to a bus. The main advantage of trams are comfort, capacity and long term cost. Whether that trumps buses flexibility is up to debate.

[–] the_sisko@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago

Street level is not the same thing as "among car traffic". For instance, there's a stretch of the N-Judah in SF between Embarcadero and 4th & King which is on street level, but in fact it is in an entirely separate right of way, where it is illegal for cars to drive. And unlike other places in SF where it's illegal for cars to be (like bike lanes, bus lanes, Market st), people actually respect that. So it's entirely possible to avoid the private car right of way. If you can avoid intermingling with cars, and you get signal priority, then you'll go faster than cars, because you're not stuck in traffic and you don't need to wait for the lights.

The issue is that in this segment, I haven't noticed much in the way of signal priority. The N, which is far more important than any private car on those intersections, has to wait when it really should just sail through intersections, because the signals knew the N was coming and changed ahead of time.

I know that this can be achieved more or less with BRT, but it seems absolutely silly to put in the rails without having a dedicated right of way, and yet that's what the majority of SF's above-ground light rail is. IMO, if there's light rail on the street, either it should be car free, or the railway should have curbs surrounding it to prevent intrusion from cars. Full stop.

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

While this is a point about implementation/regulation, and not about trams in general, it is an important point to make.

In my city of Hamburg, Germany, Iearned to avoid buses. Too often they get slowed down by traffic jams, which makes them late and unreliable.

Dedicated bus lanes, separated from cars, would solve the problem. Until they don't have that, the U-Bahn and S-Bahn (which run on rails separated from traffic, underground or above street level) are my clear favorites.

A city which prioritizes public transit, would/could give street level trams priority at traffic lights, and maybe even disallow cars from using the tracks as a normal lane.