this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2023
435 points (97.0% liked)
Lemmy.World Announcements
29153 readers
37 users here now
This Community is intended for posts about the Lemmy.world server by the admins.
Follow us for server news π
Outages π₯
https://status.lemmy.world/
For support with issues at Lemmy.world, go to the Lemmy.world Support community.
Support e-mail
Any support requests are best sent to info@lemmy.world e-mail.
Report contact
- DM https://lemmy.world/u/lwreport
- Email report@lemmy.world (PGP Supported)
Donations π
If you would like to make a donation to support the cost of running this platform, please do so at the following donation URLs.
If you can, please use / switch to Ko-Fi, it has the lowest fees for us
Join the team
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
There will be a announcement soon and even if we dont defederate you can simply block threads yourself in 0.19!
I hope you give us the option. I want to see what threads is like
What is threads?
Metaβs version of twitter.
ETA for update to that? Seems to work fine on the servers I'm aware of.
In the next week we will upgrade our test environment and test our automation there, if everything works fine we will then be doing it probably the week after that.
Thank you for your work.
Thank you! You are making lemmy great!
Want to say this because the release notes make it perfectly clear. Instance blocking is not and cannot be considered an alternative to defederation.
Not a replacement for defederation, it's still needed to keep instances healthy. Plus the fact that Lemmy doesn't really even have blocks, they're just mutes called blocks (which are only useful under the assumption that the blocked account is innocent, and the blocker is just having a fit or doesn't have credibility), if we had a way to restrict malicious users then I would say being more hands off isn't that bad but as it stands there isn't so defederation and moderation is still important and can't be substituted with blocking.
But for those "I hate that instance BLOCK IT!!!!! FOR MURICA!!!!!!" A instance wide defederation is too much. But for those really bad like csam or racist, radical instances it is the best to defederate.
That is a fair point, and I would agree if the only people calling for threads defederation were the snowflakes (the overly sensative opininated users you speak of). However many people have highlighted important reasons why threads federation isn't a good idea.
Reasons such as:
β
So while there are some bad and dumb reasons people argue for defederation there are legitimate concerns over this and threads.
Side note (also a bit of a rant):
I feel like the sensitive snowflake users ruin it for people who have legitimate and valid concerns, they undermine efforts to make spaces better because people are so used to dealing with them that when a person brings up something that could be a problem or should be addressed the default response is to dismissively just tell them to block users or instances, under the assumption that a user is one of those snowflakes. (It happened back with the Rammy situation, when the user posted to alert the fediverse that their instance was rogue).Personally I feel like there should be more severity when it comes to users who make false/opinionated claims so that any claims in general aren't treated as false or non-credible by default, but I also realize that would be difficult given the size of the instance and also isn't really my pace to decide since I'm not responsible for user moderation outside of my own communities or ones I mod in.
β
Just some things to think about. Also sorry for the late response, been having trouble on my Lemmy app. I guess better late than never though (lot of times it is never when I'm late to check or respond).
We will see. We will be of course not cu ksu king if we see a lot of just spam, hate or just ads to "Come over to threads" ads in any way we will look into defedarating them.
I implore you to read the article I just published regarding how people become radicalized. Your decision is ultimately going to affect the well-being and safety of the users of Lemmy.World.
I see the suggestion of personally blocking Threads purported as a solution, but that is limited to a personal level. That does not solve the problem of radicalization of the user-base in general. Users who have not blocked them or people viewing without a profile will be potentially exposed to misinformation and extremism.
As documented in my article, radicalization happens through a social contagion effect, in which repeated exposures reinforce the radical beliefs. People who otherwise would not believe such things become radicalized through repetition, and social media websites (including reddit and lemmy) serve as catalysts for radicalizing such vulnerable people.
Incels were spawned through their echo-chamber on reddit, and slowly radicalized to the point in which they have committed mass murder and acts of domestic terrorism. Read sources The_Donald on reddit was originally a satire subreddit that became a pro-trump echo-chamber, which snowballed into real-world extremism and had to be banned.
Threads has been subject to mass amounts of radicalizing, extremist content, and there have also been instances of users having personal information doxxed on Threads due to Meta's information-harvesting practices. [1]
Threads was marketed to be open to 'free speech' and encouraged the Far-Right movement to join, who have spread extremism, hate, and harassment on Threads already. [3] Threads has been a hotbed of Israel-Palestine misinformation/propaganda. [4]
They fired fact-checkers just prior to Threads' launch [1], however they claim they will have 3rd party fact-checkers next year. [5]
Meta/FB has a rampant history of illegal and unethical practices, including running experiments on their users which affected their moods and induced depression in many uninformed, non-consenting subjects. [6]
Meta/FB/Instagram also have a strong history of facilitating the spread of misinformation and extremism, which contributed to the January 6th insurrection attempt. [7]
If exploding heads was defederated with because of this sort of toxic extremism, why would you want to federate with a platform plagued by that same content? One known for shortcomings moderating it? And one which comes from a company with a long history of unethical practices regarding users?
With their rampant history of unethical and illegal business practices, I encourage you (the Lemmy. World team) not to federate with Threads for the well-being of the users in this instance. I have consistently seen a larger consensus of Lemmy.World users opposing federation than being interested in it.
A significant portion of Lemmy (in general as well as Lemmy.World) users migrated here from reddit after being disappointed in the reddit administration's failure to represent their users' interests. Unlike most of the users on reddit, a significant proportion of the users on Lemmy.World are the active users who cared enough about their principles to leave and start over here.
I have really valued the leadership of Lemmy.World thus far and have donated to you since my first week here, because I believed in this instance and our community. And I still do.
But I will be cancelling my donations and likely finding a different instance whose ethics are more aligned with my own, should you choose to federate with Threads. I have tried to be an active user and promote discussion and sharing content on Lemmy.World. But in federating with Threads, I believe you will lose a lot of active community members like myself.
I sincerely hope you will take this into consideration in making your final decision.
Yadda yadda yadda... You can just block them yourself. No need to force everyone to miss out on them, just because you may think it's wrong to federate with them.
I already acknowledged how that does not protect the community itself. Including from potential unethical practices/non-consenting experiments by Threads against users, seeing as how that is an established practice of the parent company.
If Threads is federated with Lemmy.World, could they not carry out actions that would in-turn affect users from this instance?
For example, say they manipulate the hot posts on Threads to be depressing content to experiment on moods (again). Would that manipulated feed not affect users of this instance with the federated content?
Or what about how FB and Instagram promoted misinformation many times over, and which is a current problem on Threads? How is this different than defederating from Exploding Heads?
It seems wild to me to federate with a notorious bad actor like Meta/Threads. It's so clearly in opposition to cultivating a healthy fediverse IMO. The immediate payoff is more users in the Fediverse, but I think it will be a mistake in the long run.
People advocating for trusting Meta/Threads this time after their history is like believing that touching a hot stove won't burn me this time.
If it seems wild to you to fedrate with Metq, why don't you just defederate yourself then?
Because you actually have that power. You yourself can decide.
If .world deferates the entire instance, people like me who wants to federate with them no longer has a choice.
So do you feel the same way for exploding heads? I don't think platforms should be given exposure when they're going to lead to more radicalization.
And I was intending to create some more communities here, but I'm reluctant to do that with potential Threads integration.
For instance, I was thinking about making a community for my city, but I wouldn't want Threads integration to be incorporated into the community. Would I have a way of the community itself blocking Threads?
But what it ultimately boils down to is the danger that the far-right poses, especially with trump's dictator remarks and threats against political opponents as well as the justice department.
These platforms and the way they are managed have real-world consequences. January 6th is an example. The_Donald and incels on reddit lead to real-world violence and murders. 8chan users have a history of encouraging mass shooters.
This is such a tumultuous time with dangerous and fascist rhetoric becoming normalized, and there is a danger of real-world violence. There's also plenty of examples already. Far-right extremism has been on the rise around the world and is a global concern.
I think the ethical decision is not to enable such platforms that enable hatespeech, harassment, and radicalization. But I understand that you disagree with me.
Actually I don't feel that for any instance, be they extreme right left or center.
Let the users pick for themselves, instead of forcing them into a position.
The thing is, you could make a profile on Threads as well. You could create your own instance that is federated. It's not like .world refraining from federating would mean you can't view Threads in general. Just like you can still experience FB content even tho they are not federated. No one is stopping you.
But this isn't a matter of right and left discourse; it's a matter of people being manipulated into extreme and dangerous beliefs and actions without realizing it.
I think it is blatantly wrong to enable and promote such platforms and social disease, just like it would be wrong for supermarkets to sell dangerous/defective products.
Someone may be interested in trying some special kind of water, but it shouldn't be sold in stores if it's poisoning people. The shop can't stop someone from doing dangerous things, but they can refrain from enabling harm to come to their shoppers by refraining from peddling dangerous products.
It's like a Medicare insurance firm knowingly hiring a con-artist who has already defrauded countless elderly individuals...
I don't think it's right for large instances to allow dangerous misinformation to affect their users. FB/Instagram have culpability in the real-world violence. The massive amount of unnecessary deaths from covid misinformation. Anti-masking. Overdosing on horse de-wormer...
The admins of these large instances have an ethical decision to make which will have real-world consequences. They will have culpability in spreading radicalism and exposing their users to potential unethical influence by Meta/Threads.
If they federate and it leads to users losing their self-identity to identity fusion to a radical group, that victim is on them. That fractured family is on them. They will share responsibility for radical users trying to foment insurrection or executing their families due to delusional extremism. [1] [2]
They have to decide whether they want to protect and cultivate a healthy community or not. By federated with Threads, they will be doing the opposite.
From the changelog:
Not how instance blocking seems to work in 0.19, it's the equivalent of community blocking, won't affect users or their posts. So not a replacement to defederation or moderation.
This stance is very weird since it implies that users are entitled to something on a server we don't own or control, but really we're as entitled to federation as we are to these accounts. An admin can ban your account off their server forever because they felt like it, and those same admins can defederate your favorite server for the same reason. The difference between the fediverse and social media is that there are other instances with different rules you can go, and different federation stances. Your freedom is having other options.
Plus this is made even easier given that Lemmy now has a native way to export user settings in 0.19, which definitely does make life much easier for those who wish to migrate.
From the changelog: