When you first start out, it feels like the hardest part is figuring out how to get from a to b on a conceptual level. Eventually that will become far easier.

You break the big problem down into discrete steps, then figure out the besy way to do each step. It takes little skill to say "the computer just needs to do this". The trick is knowing how to speak to the computer in a way that can make sense to the computer, to you, and to the others who will eventually have to work with your code.

You're doing the equivalent of a painter saying "I've done the hard part of envisioning it in my head! I'm just going to pay some guy on fiver to move the brush for me"

This is difficult to put into words, as it's also not about memorization of every language specific syntax pattern. But there's a difference between looking up documentation or at previous code for syntax, and trying to have chatGPT turn your psuedocode notes into working code.

[–] emptiestplace@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago

The more you grow in experience the more you're going to realize that syntax and organization is the majority of programming work.

organization, absolutely - but syntax? c'mon...

[–] Stumblinbear@pawb.social 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm a pretty senior dev and have chat gpt open for quick searches. It's great for helping me figure out what to Google in the cases where I can't think of the name of a pattern or type I'm looking for. It also helps quite a bit with learning about obscure functions and keywords in SQL that I can do more research on

Hell, I use Copilot daily. Its auto complete is top-tier

[–] pkill@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

Copilot is good for tedious stuff like writing enums. But otherwise I more often than not need to only accept tne suggested line or particular words, since in multiline snippets it can do stupid things, like exiting outside of main() or skipping error checks.

[–] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 year ago

I've been programming for decades, I'm not actually a beginner. A mistake I made early on was thinking that everything I learn will be worth the time to learn it, and will always increase my overall skill level. But (particularly as relates to syntax) it's not and it doesn't; something I only use once or rarely, something that isn't closely connected with the rest of what I often do, I'll just forget it after a while. I greatly prefer being broadly capable of making things happen to having a finely honed specialization, so I run into that sort of thing a lot, there is an ocean of information out there and many very different things a programmer can be doing.

I think it is an important and valuable lesson to know when to get over yourself and take shortcuts. There are situations where you absolutely should never do that, but they are rare. There are many situations where not taking shortcuts is a huge mistake and will result in piles of abandoned code and not finishing what you set out to do. AI is an incredibly powerful source of shortcuts.

You’re doing the equivalent of a painter saying “I’ve done the hard part of envisioning it in my head! I’m just going to pay some guy on fiver to move the brush for me”

More like you've coded the functionality for a webapp, have a visual mockup, and pay some guy on fiver to write the CSS for you, because doing it yourself is an inefficient use of your time and you don't specialize in CSS.

As for the issue of a new programmer ending up with problems because they rely too much on AI and somehow fail to learn how to model the structure of programs in their head, that's probably real, but I can't imagine how that will go because all I had to go on when I was learning was google and IRC and it's totally different. Hope it works out for them.

[–] eclectic_electron@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

TBF that's how many master artists worked in the past. The big art producers had one master painter guiding a bunch of apprentices who did the actual legwork.

[–] Rodeo@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

And senior devs guide junior devs in the same way. The point is the masters already did their time in the trenches. That how they became masters.

[–] 257m@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That the exact opposite problem for most people though. Syntax is hard at first because you are unfamiliar and gets more natural to you overtime. Algorithms are easier to think about conceptually as a person with no programming experience as they are not programming specific. If you are an experienced developer struggling over syntax yet breezing through difficult data structure and algorithm problems (Eg. Thinking about the most efficient way to upload constantly updating vertex data to the gpu) you are definitely the anomaly.

[–] sj_zero@lotide.fbxl.net 1 points 1 year ago

There's a 5 hour interview with John Carmack on YouTube where he talks about transitioning from really caring deeply about algorithms and the like to deeply caring about how to make a sustainable and maintainable codebase you can have an entire team work on.

Often, a solution that is completely correct if all you're doing is solving that problem is completely incorrect in the greater context of the codebase you're working within, like if you wanted to add a dog to the Mona Lisa, you can't just draw a detailed line art dog or a cartoon dog and expect it to work -- you'd need to find someone who can paint a dog similar to the art style of the piece and properly get it to mesh with the painting.