this post was submitted on 03 Oct 2023
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Not OP and not as educated in leftist theory, but the difference is nobody works inside the coat to produce that value. The purpose of that bit is to ensure one cannot profit from another's labour by virtue of one owning the means of production, or at least that's how I've always understood it.
Oh, but what if they work in my coat, in my barn, gather my mushrooms for a salary? He (worker/labourer) profits from my coat (it warms him, he saves expences not using his own), he doesn't have to face elements and has an enviroment and a way of (having a job) earning in my barn, and his coleague sells my mushrooms gathered by team, to convert it into the money.
So the worker profits from me. Profits from my labour put into the earnign of the coat, buying it, cleaning it, me saving (debting) and building a barn, aranging a mashrooms farm, finding people, taking risks, etc ... Are you (socialists/comunists) talking about abolishing "worker/labourer" now, cause he profits from capitalist farmer? :)
P.S. in scenario above, we would all earn our part, but if somebody wants to own any part more โ of gear, buildings, organization, responsibility, risks โ just buy shares, or vote by feet and build your own bussines.
This is a terrible gotcha and shows that you didn't even read the theory before you thought you could debunk it.
A socialist system would mean that the worker is getting the full value of their labor... that includes your imaginary CEO, because that person is acting as a worker in much of your examples.
Once you recognize that you're arbitrarily assigning this person as a non-worker, you realize the problem with your gotcha...
You're basically saying "what if the ceo works really hard, then should he still get nothing?" the thing we're trying to abolish is the people who DON'T work, the CEO's who sit on their asses and collect would be the ones losing out in this system, same with landlords. The people actually working the land should own it. "passive" income is what socialists seek to abolish, because we actually value labor.
P.S. answering to your: "This is a terrible gotcha and shows that you didn't even read the theory before you thought you could debunk it." Let's not fall so low as to the personal attacks ;) or conclusions about a person. You don't know what I have red and what not, to judge. A question is a question โ it can be anounced even by a parrot. If you are to philosophize and a question is of current topic, and you are not a parrot yourself, then it should not be a problem to discuss it with logic and arguments by both sides. You see ;) I can do it also, well of course unless you are a parrot :)))
It's not really a personal attack, it's a statement of fact, you're clearly approaching this assuming it's stupid even though you obviously haven't read the material needed to argue against it, if you had you wouldn't be making the arguments you are.
Your arguments aren't logical, they're being petty with definitions, you're squabbling about things that don't matter to the socialist argument and can be answered hundreds of ways by the different philosophers, and if you had read any of the material you would understand why your arguments are meaningless.
:) beeing not a young person, beeing born in one of the soviet block countries (forced in to that block by force), having to learn commies litterature almost from zero grade and during the whole education system, later having finished bussines and economy studies in capitalism, now having a small IT bussiness, even your nickname (as it sounds) for me is behind the borderline of my tolerance. ;) Yet, I'm not trying to call you someone or even atack your beliefs by presumptions. The questions were just the questions, simply out of interest of how would someone who presents himself (socialist or comunist) would answer them. P.S. your comment (before this one) where you replyed my question by question, was quite good as for a discusion, even if you fall time to time into some magic asumptions about person behind questions. Anyway, I thank you for you effort when you answered the questions and presented your point of view on the subject. :)))
The Soviet block countries were extremely anti-socialist. They were lying and pretending to be socialist to acquire power, they were actually authoritarian hellholes that never implemented even one socialist policy. I have no doubt that being raised there is why you aren't familiar with the theory.
If you need evidence of this, look at how they treated Yugoslavia when they implemented workplace democracy, an actually socialist policy. Lenin himself even called it "state capitalism"
Well we are getting away from the topic of "profit from capital", but I have to mention it โ Yugoslavia was a shithole too although somewhat a bit less than sssr. But lets not expand here both.
Yes, of course, but what can you expect from a country that is hated by BOTH of the worlds superpowers.