When I was a freshman before transition, I had a guy save my number and call me like 2 years after we had an intro engineering class (we spoke maybe once?) to ask me out on a date.

[–] SharkWeek@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

I had that with a contractor who had had my number for work purposes. He kept trying for 5 years.

I'm a butch lesbian, my mistake was being polite and chatty with him.

[–] aeshna_cyanea@lemm.ee 6 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

My sister has a similar issue with a former classmate but for some reason she refuses to block/mark him as spam. it's been years now and he's persistent

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee -1 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Is that ... a bad thing? I am missing something, did he take the number from somewhere or you gave it to him? But otherwise calling someone and asking out is a pretty harmless thing to do.

[–] andros_rex@lemmy.world 13 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

Not when it was a number used once to arrange a group project meeting and that we had not connected otherwise? Two years later - I had dropped out?

One thing I noticed as in my progress through as STEM major was the decline in number of female classmates. Calc 3 might have a reasonable number, but the drop off was exponential. The college run that got me through was done as a man, so I didn’t experience the stuff but I heard rumors. Worse than rumors from post docs in the lab I worked in.

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 6 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Yep, if the number was not given specifically to connect that is what makes it inappropriate for me. But overall, an invite to a date besides being old fashioned is not necessarily creepy, even after long time. Of course, I don't know if there were additional clues that made the whole thing creepy (tone of voice, phrasing etc.).

I studied computer engineering in Italy, and I can relate with the number of women being very low. I think there were maybe <10 women in the whole class on a ~60 people total after the first semester (starting with 250 people). Most of them were top of the class, which to me always suggested that while many men signed up and then "see how it goes", only women who knew exactly what they wanted signed up.

[–] insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world 8 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

It's how women have to be excellent to make a male dominated thing a part of their life. It starts long before uni so you're seeing it after other women have been knocked down and out of it.

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 3 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

Tbh, in Italy there is no much "before university" in terms of "being excellent". The admission test was extremely easy, with a very high number of admitted students and on topics that are common to all high schools (we have a completely different school system in Italy). In fact, the vast majority of people in my class never studied those topics in high school. Also university costs were low (from 0 to ~2k/year depending on family income).

But I think that a mix of stereotypes (I.e. gender stereotypes), peer pressure (do you want to go study in a class 90% men) and other social issues definitely discourage all but the most motivated women to join, which is a shame.

The same exact thing applies to many other faculties of course. Psychology and "educational sciences" (literal translation) are basically just women (at least in Italy), which is exactly the same phenomenon.

[–] insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Before university = the whole life lived as a girl before university is even in it. The whole time being held to a different standard, encouraged one way, discouraged another way, etc etc. Any interest or persuasion being dismantled and/or dismissed for decades before uni.

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 1 points 58 minutes ago

But what you are saying doesn't match much the data (at least in Italy). In Italy females consistently get higher grades than miles, in all levels of school, and they do that from other women teachers (including STEM subjects).

How this matches "being held to a different standard", for example?

They are the vast majority of schools in humanities (languages, classical studies, etc.) and all "licei" (=high schools created with the purpose of forming the ruling class back in 1920s) and they are the minority only in technical schools (which are generally lower quality schools more oriented toward professions than university) and in the scientific high school.

This also doesn't seem to suggest any encouragement or discouragement in one direction or another, BUT it does match perfectly the culturally rigid gender stereotypes about women being more creative and fitting roles of care.

Also worth noting that women attend university in a higher % (56%) compared to men (also a result of gender stereotypes IMHO) and with higher grades on average. They are also the majority of PhD students (59%).

So my question I guess would be: why medicine and psychology are mostly and overwhelmingly women faculties, while engineering etc. are the opposite?

any interest or persuasion being dismantled and/or dismissed for decades before uni.

I wouldn't say "any", but I would absolutely say that interests in fields that are traditionally male-dominated are discouraged for women and viceversa (I have written in another comment, the imbalance in educational science is even higher than the one in engineering).

So I do see gender roles, I do see cultural influences about what is " for men" and "for women", I don't see the different standard women are held up to.

[–] andros_rex@lemmy.world 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

ROME (AP) — Violence and discrimination against women in Italy is a “prevailing and urgent concern,” a European expert on human rights said Thursday in a scathing report that comes amid a national outcry over a gruesome murder of a young woman allegedly by her ex-boyfriend.

Dunja Mijatovic, commissioner for human rights at the Council of Europe, faulted Italy across multiple areas, lamenting that Italian courts and police sometimes revictimize the victims of gender-based violence and that women have increasingly less access to abortion services. She also noted Italy’s last-place in the EU ranking for gender equality in the workplace.

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Absolutely...but how does that relate to the previous topic?

[–] andros_rex@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago (1 children)

Earlier you said:

Most of them were top of the class, which to me always suggested that while many men signed up and then “see how it goes”, only women who knew exactly what they wanted signed up.

Can you draw connections between what I linked/emphasized and this statement?

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 1 points 1 hour ago* (last edited 1 hour ago) (1 children)

It's quite hard to make connections between statements about adult society (I.e. workplace, reproductive rights) and what happens in teenagers in a completely shielded (and tbh, fairly inclusive) environment like schools (mostly, high school as that's when people decide to sign up in university). Actually, possibly what happens even earlier, as many people who go to STEM faculties in university come from the "scientific high school" which is the only "liceo" where males are more than females.

On average females earn also higher grades, in all levels of school (which is why I don't find solid the argument that women have to abide higher standard of excellence in this context).

So all this to say, I definitely think there is a cultural issue that pushes women away from STEM subjects (a phenomenon quite common in all the West), but I don't think is what my interlocutor suggested - that is another expression of women having to meet higher standards. This wouldn't explain the corresponding imbalance in other areas.

To make an example: 91.8% of students in teaching sciences are females. 87% of students in computer science are males. I would say that culture stereotypes and fixed gender roles are responsible for both, and instead this idea of "higher standards" seems fuzzy and explains only one side of the equation.

Curious also to note that women are absolutely the vast majority of teachers in kindergarten (99.3%!), primary school (97%), secondary school (77%) and high school (65%). While women are perfectly capable of reproducing gender oppression, it's also fair to assume that there are plenty of women role models in STEM subjects.

Anyway, besides this long thing, I can't find solid connections between what you posted and the topic, can you maybe elaborate your point?

[–] andros_rex@lemmy.world 1 points 53 minutes ago* (last edited 52 minutes ago) (1 children)

A couple other stories to help connect the dots:

When I was in high school, I was in Botball for a while. I was the only girl in the coding team - there was another girl on the construction team that was mostly tagging along with her boyfriend (I’m not saying this to demean her, she was a friend.)

The guy who was teaching us to code refused to teach me enums. He was talking about structs, my eyes looked glazed over because I didn’t get to eat lunch at school lol - he made some joke about losing me and said it was too advanced for me.

I also was getting really into Linux at the time - playing with things like Compiz Fusion on a shitty laptop during lunch (again, I didn’t get to eat lol). I wanted to make a cell phone game - I think I had a Nokia at the time. So I downloaded some sample project and opened it in Netbeans or whatever. It showed up as covered with red squigglies, because I didn’t have the libraries, but the group of coders walked passed, saw the squiggles and started joking about how shit at coding I was and how stupid I was. I stopped coding at lunch, I felt hopelessly insecure about even talking about Linux because I was worried someone would jump down my throat with the GNU thing or make fun of my distro. There was no safe “nerd space” for me.

And as a teacher, I see this shit all the time.

[–] sudneo@lemm.ee 1 points 15 minutes ago

That genuinely sucks. I think that school is far from perfect even in my experience, and yet reading this I can't help but feeling so disconnected from it. My experience has been so different.

To give some different anecdotal experience:

scientific school in suburb of Rome
majority males

My class of 31 in first grade saw 5 new students over the course of the 5 years. 10 people graduated. In the class, 2 female students were genuinely encouraged to be point of almost be privileged in subjects like technical drawing or math. They are the only ones that ended up leaving school with the highest grade (both of them Physics PhD now). In comparison a male student was objectively brilliant. The kind of guy who could figure out physics formulas on his own, great at math Olympics etc. Didn't pass the last year, among other reason due to absences. No teacher ever encouraged him, and he was treated like just a guy who didn't want to do anything. Had a strange family situation, but anyway, ultimately now works in the family bar (which is nothing bad, of course, but a massive waste of potential).

I think despite all the limitations, all the problems, my school experience was not one where these kinds of stereotypes were present. Our study groups have always been mixed etc. All our math, physics, biology, chemistry teachers have been female but one.