THE POLICE PROBLEM
The police problem is that police are policed by the police. Cops are accountable only to other cops, which is no accountability at all.
99.9999% of police brutality, corruption, and misconduct is never investigated, never punished, never makes the news, so it's not on this page.
When cops are caught breaking the law, they're investigated by other cops. Details are kept quiet, the officers' names are withheld from public knowledge, and what info is eventually released is only what police choose to release — often nothing at all.
When police are fired — which is all too rare — they leave with 'law enforcement experience' and can easily find work in another police department nearby. It's called "Wandering Cops."
When police testify under oath, they lie so frequently that cops themselves have a joking term for it: "testilying." Yet it's almost unheard of for police to be punished or prosecuted for perjury.
Cops can and do get away with lawlessness, because cops protect other cops. If they don't, they aren't cops for long.
The legal doctrine of "qualified immunity" renders police officers invulnerable to lawsuits for almost anything they do. In practice, getting past 'qualified immunity' is so unlikely, it makes headlines when it happens.
All this is a path to a police state.
In a free society, police must always be under serious and skeptical public oversight, with non-cops and non-cronies in charge, issuing genuine punishment when warranted.
Police who break the law must be prosecuted like anyone else, promptly fired if guilty, and barred from ever working in law-enforcement again.
That's the solution.
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Our definition of ‘cops’ is broad, and includes prison guards, probation officers, shitty DAs and judges, etc — anyone who has the authority to fuck over people’s lives, with minimal or no oversight.
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RULES
① Real-life decorum is expected. Please don't say things only a child or a jackass would say in person.
② If you're here to support the police, you're trolling. Please exercise your right to remain silent.
③ Saying ~~cops~~ ANYONE should be killed lowers the IQ in any conversation. They're about killing people; we're not.
④ Please don't dox or post calls for harassment, vigilantism, tar & feather attacks, etc.
Please also abide by the instance rules.
It you've been banned but don't know why, check the moderator's log. If you feel you didn't deserve it, hey, I'm new at this and maybe you're right. Send a cordial PM, for a second chance.
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ALLIES
• r/ACAB
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INFO
• A demonstrator's guide to understanding riot munitions
• Cops aren't supposed to be smart
• Killings by law enforcement in Canada
• Killings by law enforcement in the United Kingdom
• Killings by law enforcement in the United States
• Know your rights: Filming the police
• Three words. 70 cases. The tragic history of 'I can’t breathe' (as of 2020)
• Police aren't primarily about helping you or solving crimes.
• Police lie under oath, a lot
• Police spin: An object lesson in Copspeak
• Police unions and arbitrators keep abusive cops on the street
• Shielded from Justice: Police Brutality and Accountability in the United States
• When the police knock on your door
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ORGANIZATIONS
• NAACP
• National Police Accountability Project
• Vera: Ending Mass Incarceration
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Within his rights to have the weapon on him, yes, but pointing a gun is not carrying a gun, it's brandishing, and brandishing is a no-no no matter how you slice it. Speaking as a gun owner, if you point a gun at something, that means you have intention to kill it, otherwise you shouldn't be pointing your gun at it. Too many people watch TV and Movies and think that after you point the gun to let people know that you're really, really serious, you stop and give them a chance to rethink their choices. That's not how it is; if you're drawing a gun, you have the intention to use it (at least as far as the law is concerned), so the gun should only ever come out when you've already committed to the belief that this situation requires deadly force in order to preserve the life of yourself or others and it's time to act. Otherwise, the gun stays put. That's it, there's no middle ground there, either you have to act with deadly force to save yourself and others or you don't. Anyway, brandishing in and of itself is a crime basically everywhere, IIRC. But in so many words, regardless of how they may have provoked and mishandled the situation, it's likely that any reasonable court is going to find that the officers' response to the weapon being brandished was entirely reasonable within the expectations of their job.
So, pro-tip, if you're going to introduce a gun to a situation, it had best be because you're about to use deadly force for a justifiable reason. Otherwise, just leave that shit right where it is. In point of fact, there are people who have (unknowingly) shot cops because they believed that they were acting to protect their life or someone else's, and got off with it. In all fairness, people are held accountable for it way more than they should be; cops getting shot doing no-knock raids on the wrong house (for example) is a predictable consequence, and well, play stupid games, win stupid prizes. The cops should take their licks on that and, rather than lock people up for not having the ESP to know it was the cops, maybe take a moment to wonder if they're really making smart choices here.
So was he just holding it, or pointed it at them? Those seem like two very different scenarios
It may not have been legal since he was on federal land. He wouldn't have pulled a gun on them if they had not played silly games (Most likely) I state the most likely since we don't know much about him, but there is no indication he was a hardened criminal ready to fight law enforcement. I don't like when law enforcement creates scenarios where people feel the need to defend themselves because they're confused as to what is going on.
Had they just walked up and identified themselves, I do not think anyone would have been shot.
Agreed. It's likely that the cops set the conditions for this to happen; maybe not consciously, but still.
Absolutely, and for many cops, it's not even subconscious. They enjoy confrontational situations where they have every advantage of law, gunpower, steroids, and the ever-present public perception that they're good guys no matter what.
That is my issue. It is like a no-knock warrant where they kick in the door at 2am and kill the home owner.
I am not 100% against no knock warrants but they should be rare. I have read many stories where they ended up someone being dead over something more trivial that could have been dealt with during daylight hours and just talking to the person in public.
It is why I support reform. I am not anti-law enforcement at all but I am against bad law enforcement.
We do know that it is legal to have guns in national forests in Idaho.
You’re correct. I thought there will still some debate about it but looks like federal law matches state law since 2010. The only difference is in buildings.
I know in the past federal land had more restrictions
Yeah, but that doesn't mean you can point it at cops.
How would he know they were cops?
What if it's just two guys and they haven't said anything about being cops and from what you see they're roughing your friend up.
OK to draw on two non-police who are roughing up your brother?