cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/28140949
this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2025
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The very smallest of small percent of them would. Most drug addicts never make it out of poverty because they've done something to also give them a criminal record and typically can't hold down a job.
You're almost there, and I sincerely value your input. Let's go on this journey together...
What if we treated them like human beings in need of care and rehabilitation instead of criminals who can't "hold down a job"?
Why do they not make it out of poverty?
Is it because they can't afford to? Why is that?
Is it because they can't afford to make ends meet on a minimum wage job? Can't find affordable housing? Can't pay for child care, counseling, health care, or rehab?
What if we helped them get rid of their addiction and didn't jail them for it?
If we're going to write off an entire vulnerable demographic of society, we as the functional members have an obligation to ensure that life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are available to all. Not just those who can afford it.
Many other first world countries do this successfully already, the problem with our country comes down to the money being made keeping these people locked up and incarcerated.
Look up Norway, Finland, Sweden and their response to crime and rehabilitation. It works, if you focus on helping people instead of helping profits.
Imagine a world where those in need got the billions of dollars in tax payer subsidies that Elon Musk gets?
Dude. What are you doing this for? No shit it's not a check this box and all problems are solved situation. IF ITS NOT PERFECT, NO ONE CAN DO ANYTHING.
One step at a time, and the first step is to have a little fucking empathy.
The first step is to have a little dose of reality. The world isn't sunshine and lollipops, and the proposed solutions just end up creating slum-housing and spreading the problem around. I've seen it put into effect before with horrible outcomes. The path to hell is paved with good intentions and all...
You're not a realist. You are just a selfish asshole.
How does telling you the truth about the homeless population benefit me in any way, shape, or form?
You haven't passed the bar to call me "selfish". Sure, I might be an asshole, but this isn't one of those times either. The reality is that we can't help everyone, and some people aren't saveable. You can't point to Sweden or Finland as answers either, because they have the highest per-capita drug deaths of other euro nations.
The ol' we can't save everyone so why save anyone argument. Bold strategy cotton.
Also, since we're talking about drug deaths do you know what county has the highest IN THE WORLD?
The United States, so yeah if we can copy Finland's homework and reduce our homeless by 435k, why wouldn't we?
Oh that's right the guy on the Internet gate keeping who can call him a selfish asshole says it might not work.
P.S. Finland had 253 people die of drug overdoses in 2023 with a population of 5.5 million.
(4.6 deaths per 100,000 people)
The US had 105,000 people die of drug overdoses in 2023 with a population of 335 million.
(31.3 deaths per 100,000 people)
It's obvious reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. You must have missed the point where I said housing should first go to people without these deficits. You know...like 6 posts ago...
You've sat there and put words in my mouth, made strawman arguments, ad hominem attacks against me...
Do you know how to debate a point at all? Because you're failing at every step of the way...
"You can't point to Sweden or Finland as answers either, because they have the highest per-capita drug deaths of other euro nations."
Dis you? Are you the 10 second Tom from 50 first dates that just forgets shit as soon as he clicks post? Lol.
I'm quoting you and you're calling it a straw man?
You're tripping over yourself to play the victim. Just go back under the bridge you troll.
You can't point to Sweden or Finland because the rest of Europe is doing much better - by giving people proper psychological help, committing them when needed, and jailing them otherwise.
My argument is for committing these people to asylums and getting all of America the proper psychological and medical help they need, which puts people in these positions.
My position has never been "oh we can't help them all so why even try"...that's your misconception. And it's your own fault you don't understand the argument.
You are once again 100% incorrect. Also, the horse is already dead why are you still beating it?
The rest of Europe is NOT doing much better.
However you won't respond to facts, won't argue a point intelligently, but you'll cry wolf at being faced with data and discourse that shows you don't understand what you are talking about at the most basic level.
Once again here's some data supporting my claim (still waiting for you to produce ANYTHING to support any of your claims) that you won't read, consider, or understand:
(Find me the "rest of Europe" on any chart or article)
https://ourworldindata.org/homelessness
https://www.developmentaid.org/news-stream/post/157797/homelessness-statistics-in-the-world
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_homeless_population
You have yet to counter ANY facts with anything other than your feelings, gatekeeping, or chastising and accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about.
Call me a bad debater and spin your positions until you get dizzy, it won't change the fact that you aren't operating in reality and your feelings aren't more important than actual tangible data that is EASILY obtained through a quick Google search of how this problem actually gets solved by other countries.
Asylums aren't housing, they are a form of incarceration that objectively doesn't work. I don't understand why this concept is so hard for you to grasp?
It's really simple:
Treat people how you'd like to be treated should you ever be in their situation.
It sounds like you have joined the sunshine and rainbows team saying that rehabilitation and mental health counseling is needed. Welcome, we're glad to have you!
I firmly agree, so let's chat about homelessness. Something you have more opinions on rather than a factual understanding of what causes homelessness and equally as important, what lifts people out.
If you were homeless right now, would you prefer to be locked up in an Asylum or have a chance to have a roof over your head to get a job and get back on your feet?
See how easy that is?
Stop using whataboutism to call many of them criminals (which you said), and dehumanizing them (which by the way was the original post in the article).
It's okay to be wrong, heck it's even okay to be stupid. It's NOT okay to marginalize an entire group of vulnerable citizens while they sleep on the street and you're comfortable behind your keyboard.
P.S. Your feelings and opinions are not a credible source, sorry bud.
Reality? As if the problem is not spread around already. HeLpInG ThESe pEoPle WoUlD bE WoRSe.
Just say what you really think instead of dancing around it. Maybe then someone can have a conversation with you that will actually make a difference.
My dose of reality is realizing that other countries have already solved this problem. This isn't a closed book test.
We as a country are actively putting the needs of Elon Musk over the needs of 435,000 people sleeping on the streets at night.
Your quote is actually brilliant, because the other interpretation is when people HAVE intention to do something but do nothing. That's exactly what I'm arguing against, doing nothing.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
This phrase relates to the active resistance of people doing evil things. Holy crap you can't even get your retort to make any sense.
It's like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't explain empathy and compassion to him on the Internet.
If billionaires firing average citizens and restricting our benefits/rights to enrich themselves isn't evil? What is?
If cutting cancer research for cancer patients while pretending to care about a single cancer survivor isn't evil? What is?
If illegally detaining and deporting US citizens and immigrants without due process and ignoring the rule of law so they can be tortured? What is?
If MILLIONS of people around the globe dying of disease to give the richest man in the world a tax break isn't evil? What is?
If you actively are the richest man in the world and you wake up every day with enough money to end childhood poverty, diseases, and illness and you actively choose not to? If that isn't evil, what is?
Curious to see what your definition of evil is, and how quickly you will move the goal post when we get there?
Make it make sense to me, take all the time you need.
What are you talking about? This is a post about the homeless littering the streets, not any of the bullshit you espouse here. And I'm not arguing for any of the shit you listed either. So your entire argument is a strawman, full stop.
I don't gotta take ANY time because you're all off in left field talking about something else OTHER than the conversation we're having ENTIRELY.
You've lost sight of what this conversation was about, and have gone off on some wild-ass rant about all the other things you're mad about. Maybe go back about 4-6 posts and RE-READ, with an attention to understanding what we're talking about instead of reading with the intention of rebuttal and then rejoin the conversation. I get that you're mad about what's happening to the world right now, we all are. We don't need to be giving "homeless" (read: Drug Addicts, Severely Mentally ill, People who are mal-adapted to society) housing. We need to be getting them medical care, locking them up in asylums to keep them out of the general population without treating them like criminals (though many of them are), and getting them psychological help.
You've all missed the forest for the trees here, and it's sad because you only argue it because Musk said something and you HAVE to disagree with it. Doesn't matter what it is, you MUST, because instead of looking at what he's saying, all you care about is making sure that you disagree with him. You can disagree with him as a person, and he can still be right occasionally (a broken clock is right twice a day). In this case, he's right. But your solution (giving them housing) is short-sighted, immature, naive and has had no long-term thought put into it at all.
Go live in a place with a homeless population. Go try and help them. Many aren't capable of being helped. And the only people who think like you do, are people who haven't experienced it.
I gave specific examples of countries that have reduced homelessness effectively and humanely (Finland, Norway, etc ), cited my sources and multiple solutions (not just housing, although it is a large part of fixing checks notes HOMELESSNESS?), and replied to your comment of nothing evil happening in the world?
Here's another article for you to not read or comprehend:
https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/look-finlands-housing-first-initiative
Spoiler Alert: As I know reading isn't your favorite, their solution is called Housing First (it also contains many of your same ideas that I also mentioned below). Well except for locking them up in asylums because that's as cruel as it is stupid and ineffective.
Double Spoiler Alert: As a singular example (of which there are many), Finland has a third of the homeless population percentage that we do in this country, and our GDP is 83x that of Finland. You'll find that when you "RE-READ, with an attention to understanding what we're talking about instead of reading with the intention of rebuttal".
If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest person on the planet. I have experienced homelessness, and I've also helped lift people out of it. Can you say the same?
It's obvious you've tried nothing and you're all out of ideas. We don't need to give them housing but we need to lock them up because many are criminals?
I'm arguing to help our fellow men and tax billionaires to give support to those in need and treat them with the same dignity and humanity we would anyone else.
We are not the same. I hope you find peace and faith in your fellow man again, until then I wish you luck on continuing to punch down to those in need on the Internet and sucking the toes of the richest man alive.
TL;DR: Homelessness is a multi-faceted issue that requires a complex and thoughtful solution including strong social support system, treatment, counseling, EMPATHY, and yeah a fucking roof over their head.
P.S. I don't HAVE to disagree with everything Elon says, I GET the distinct pleasure to because of how incredibly stupid and corrupt he is. After all, fighting and opposing Nazis is as American as Apple Pie.