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Poor Ukraine. One side wants to kill them all and steal the land, another side wants to rape its land, not to mention bordering Belarus, Slovakia and Hungary who are the bitches of Putin. We live in a sad reality
Not that I like fascist Putin, but isn't the civilian casualty rate in Ukraine extremely low to other conflicts we've seen recently like the genocide in Gaza or the invasion of Iraq?
They deliberately target schools and hospitals, so take that as you will
I'm not taking anything in any way, I'm making a statement about numbers, not about intentions
They is unqualified, I assume you mean all of the three: US, Israel and Russia. For those who forgot or weren't paying attention to US war crimes:
Saturday, 6 November, 2004, US strikes raze Falluja hospital
On 3 October 2015, US airstrikes destroyed our trauma hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, killing 42 people
Edit: guessing from the downvotes war crimes committed by the US and Israel, or committed against Arabs and Afghans don't count. War crimes are only bad if Russia does it. Good to know.
I think you’re going downvoted because you start off being disingenuous (“they” clearly refers to Russian invaders) and follow that up with some whataboutism.
I can assure you that the Lemmy population is quite aware of bad things being done, it having been done, by other governments. Even ones that live under those governments.
This is arguing syntax vs semantics.
Not sure what you mean. If my post reads like “understanding the written word helps” then yeah it does but that isn’t remotely what my point was.
Perhaps the Afgani’s and Palestinians shouldn’t start fights they can’t finish.
Well, you’ve found yourself in a thread about the Ukraine-Russia conflict, so those others are irrelevant to this discussion
Fuck Hamas
Edit: hope you weren’t one of those fools that voted for Trump. He wants to turn Gaza into a strip mall or a golf course
Only because Russia is failing to do what they've really wanted to do since the beginning, or did you forget Bucha.
They're still stealing children by the thousands though.
Russia is so incompetent that it fails at killing more civilians than trained personnel? Is that the argument?
For now
Yes, if Russia turns to murdering civilians on the scale of Iraq or Gaza, I'll be the first to condemn that more, but it isn't the case as of now. Not that this justifies the invasion or the nationalist Russian ideology, ofc
That is the end goal. Gulag for the political dissedents, chattle slavery for the rest of the Ukranians. Best to stop russias colonial ambitions before it gets to that point.
Not really what I think the end goal is. The invasion of Ukraine is a military response to the lack of soft power of Russia to maintaining a sphere of influence otherwise, through diplomatic and economic and other means. Guess only time will tell
If it weren't for things like this.https://www.nbcnews.com/specials/ukraine-missing-children-taken-by-russia-kherson/index.html
The source of this information isn't investigative journalism, it's claims from the Ukrainian government (as stated inside the article), which is famously known to be at war with the country it's accusing of war crimes. Russian government sources claim that Ukrainians were performing ethnic cleansing of Russian Ukrainians before the invasion and they're saving them from genocide, should we take that at face value too?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64985009
The news source points to a UN report which it links. If you open the UN report, it says:
"A data collection system maintained by the Government of Ukraine indicated that 16,221 children had been deported to the Russian Federation as of the end of February 2023. The Commission has not been able to verify these figures."
I'm sorry, but there aren't investigative journalism or independent sources evidencing widespread deportation of children, best they can point to is 200 documented cases and the Ukrainian government figures.
The un hasn't given any reason to doubt these claims. They felt confident enough in them to cite them.
Not being able to verify = there is no shown proof
Not being able to verify=there is a war going on, but the data is coming from an otherwise reputable source, during a war. They felt confident in the data provided enough to speak to it.
Please explain to me how state propaganda is a reliable source during war
Certain countries governments have a reputation, and are considered reputable. For example Germany, is generally considered a trust worthy source of information, the united states no longer is. See how that works? Just like with people, Einstein was generally reputable and trustworthy, and Asad wasn't.
Speak for yourself, Germany's coverage of the genocide in palestine is atrocious and there wasn't one German media that didn't replicate the "ghost of Kiev" news. You happen to trust Germany because you have a pro-western bias, Germany's information is as shit as that of the US.
Trusting a government source without further evidence on information about geopolitically charged topics is insane.
What does generally mean to you? Does it mean all the time with no errors or mistakes? The UN was taking Gazas death toll numbers as accurate despite not being able to verify all the time, I generally accepted the numbers coming from Gaza, although they were likely short. I happen to generally trust Germany because generally their information is accurate. If the UN (not Ukrainian btw) felt somewhat confident in the numbers to speak it to, then it's carries more weight. Tell me which "sources" would you trust?
I highly distrust information from Germany as someone who lived there for 3+ years. There's a reason why there's also a wave of fascism over there.
Primary sources providing evidence. Appeal to authority isn't enough evidence for me, evidence is. I didn't need to trust any particular sources that there was an ongoing genocide in Gaza because I could simply open up my phone and have 100 new different videos from that very day of kids being bombed from a variety of journalist outlets from different countries and social media accounts.
Like these kids?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukrainian-children-kidnapped-russian-soldiers-united-nations/
Notice how in my previous comments I denied that it's a generalised thing, not that it didn't happen occasionally. For sure a few tens, or even hundreds, of children have been sent illegally to Russia. Hell, tens of thousands of civilians have probably been murdered unlawfully in the war. My point isn't that sporadic small-scale crimes don't happen during wars, my point is that there's no evidence of generalised mass deportation of children in Ukraine by the Russian forces.
Also, bringing in children to speak their atrocity propaganda to the UN reeks of Nayirah's testimony
Well, once the war is over, and if the borders are put back to where they should be and someone can investigate it will be too late anyhow
And this is where history matters. Never said to uncritically believe. But if you prefer it that way then go ahead.
A country that has been proven in the past to lie, regularly, in this case russia, vs a country that has generally been trust worthy, not to mention the only country I really know that's denying or not saying anything on the matter is russia
The UN not outright denying their claim? Have you heard of countries denying this claim?
Of course it's always difficult counting the dead, and Russia doesn't allow any monitoring of this kind of thing in the territory it controls. But it's likely the number of civilian deaths is around double that of Gaza. The numbers for the military is likely more than double that.
Ukraine does it's best to protect it's civilian population and their soldiers wear uniforms. Hamas does not wear uniforms, and actively prevents civilians from evacuating from areas where there's combat operations. In fact having combat operations happening in populated areas was basically the point of massacring villages while taking hostages, both of which are war crimes. If you want to negotiate a prisoner release you don't massacre villages, if you want a war that minimizes civilian casualties, you don't take hostages to densely populated areas.
Hamas created a scenario to maximize civilian deaths, and it will probably never be known the true number of civilian deaths since they didn't wear uniforms so the number of Hamas dead and number of civilian deaths can't be distinguished. Israel claims half the number you see reported are Hamas, while Hamas claims it's much less.
Note the difference between a military that protects it's civilians and wears uniforms and what Hamas is doing. Larger numbers of soldiers than civilians die in Ukraine because they prioritize protecting civilians, while larger numbers of civilians than soldiers die in Gaza as fodder for their propaganda machine.
Note that Hamas is suddenly wearing uniforms as soon as a ceasefire is in effect. How often do you remember seeing them wear uniforms in combat when doing so would prevent civilian casualties? They have uniforms, they just don't wear them in combat in order to maximize confusion which results in civilian casualties.
I specifically talked about ratios and not about absolute numbers. Ukraine has an order of magnitude more people than Palestine, it would be surprising if there weren't more casualties overall.
OK, Zionist and genocide apologist.