this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2024
412 points (97.7% liked)

Linux

47950 readers
1602 users here now

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

“Actually, but Ukraine DID provoke”

Mostly NATO, and by that I mean mostly the US. The Ukrainian state is in bed with and dependent on the US, so yes it was and is a participant.

mixing in unverified, ideologically biased material with references that are legitimate

The implication here is, the more biased, the less trustworthy/factual. This is false, and anyway, I don’t think you fully see the bias baked into the supposedly unbiased sources. And “unverified” I suspect means not blessed by Western states (which are run by the capitalist class[1][2]) or Western NGOs (which are funded by Western states and the capitalist class) or Western corporate media (which are owned by the capitalist class).

isolated incidents

Liberals often view history that way, but historical materialists don’t.

[–] cm0002@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yes, Ukraine has ties with the U.S., but sovereign nations have the right to choose their alliances. Ukraine's Western integration stems from its desire for self-determination, not just U.S. influence. Russia’s aggression isn’t justified merely because Ukraine sought NATO’s support.

Bias exists everywhere, but dismissing "Western" sources wholesale, while elevating openly ideological ones, doesn’t strengthen the argument. Marxist critique should apply equally to all capitalist states, including Russia, which operates under an oligarchic system that exploits its own people. 1 2

While far-right elements in Ukraine are real, they’re a small part of the picture. Reducing Ukraine to these groups oversimplifies the conflict. Most Ukrainians are fighting for sovereignty, not fascism.

Russia’s actions are imperialist too, and as a Marxist, you should critique imperialism wherever it emerges, not just from the West.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

I hardly dismissed Western sources wholesale. Plenty of my links are to Western corporate & NGO sources.

Ukraine’s Western integration stems from its desire for self-determination, not just U.S. influence.

I mean, you say that like the people of Ukraine chose that path, but they didn’t. The Ukrainian oligarchs did, specifically the oligarchs that aligned with the US for the 2014 coup. They decided to bet on that horse. But I think it’s a stretch to call that self-determination.

Yes, Russia is shitty as well, and no less an oligarchy than the US. And Ukraine has been shitty & famously corrupt for decades; that didn’t start with Poroshenko. Russia, if given its druthers, would be imperialist, but since it presently doesn’t, it presently isn’t. Putin tried to join NATO once, to join the imperialist club, but that was rejected, because the US wanted Russia Balkanized & plundered instead. Russia has figured out it’s better off allying with Global South countries than attempting imperialist adventures upon them. And this war has accelerated that allyship.

[–] cm0002@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

"The people of Ukraine didn’t choose that path, the oligarchs did."

It’s true Ukraine has a history of oligarchic influence, but the 2014 Maidan protests were a massive, popular uprising. Ukrainians were fed up with Yanukovych’s corruption and his decision to abandon the EU agreement for closer ties with Russia. This wasn’t just oligarchs pulling strings; millions of Ukrainians demonstrated for a future that aligned with Europe, seeking more autonomy from Russia.

"Russia would be imperialist, but isn’t right now."

I would argue that Russia is acting imperialistically. The annexation of Crimea, the war in Donbas, and now the invasion of Ukraine are clear examples of Russia asserting control over its neighbors. Even if it’s not globally imperialist like the U.S., these actions align with a regional imperialism that Marxists should still oppose.

Ultimately, this isn’t about picking sides between oligarchies, but supporting the principle of self-determination for Ukraine, including resisting imperialist aggression from any direction.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

The Maidan protests were partially organic and partially inorganic. Yes there were people genuinely unhappy with the administration who protested. People were angry about the corruption before Poroshenko, and they’re angry about corruption today. Many western Ukrainians, especially Banderite western Ukrainians, were not happy with the election of Poroshenko and the the turn toward closer ties to Russia that it implied. But they were not the majority. The majority elected Poroshenko.

When the US wants regime change, it doesn’t do it from a blank slate. It investigates the endemic tensions and leverages them, inflames them. The US has kept clandestine ties with fascist elements in western Ukraine since forever. They leveraged them, and presumably whichever oligarchs who wanted to join in, under cover of popular protest. The job of Western NGOs like the National Endowment for Democracy job is to facilitate coups. “A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.” — Allen Weinstein, co-founder of the NED. Western media’s job is to paint color revolutions as entirely organic.