this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024
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Whatever lets you sleep at night, but we both know you'd have been the coward in the village pretending they don't know why no one comes out of the camps.
Russia joined Nazi Germany in an alliance during WW2.
Russia is murdering civilians without pause and you are okay with this.
Your brand of anarchy is garbage.
Tilting at a strawman only impresses fools, and only liars pretend to believe a non-aggression pact is an alliance, but feel free to prove what no legitimate historian has ever claimed.
Fun Fact btw, Mr. Civilian Casualties:
There have been 12,000 civilian deaths in Ukraine so far (not that one is justified).
How many has Israel killed in a year?
How many died in Iraq and Afghanistan?
How many died because Finland decided to actually ally with fucking Nazis in 1940 and your tiny little brain can't comprehend there is literally no justification for that possible?
Seems like you couldn't give less of a shit about "murdering civilians without pause" when it's your tribe doing it.
What is it you would call coordinating military efforts against a common foe?
It would seem it has a different name when the Finns and the Nazis do it than when the Soviets and the Nazis do it.
The Soviets didn't coordinate shit in Poland lol (they couldn't even coordinate among themselves after Stalin murdered their officer corps), the red and black fascists just agreed on temporary spheres of influence. France, Spain, Britain, etc all did similar things when jockeying over colonial possessions at various points, that doesn't mean by itself they were allies in any meaningful meaning of the word. If they were actual allies we'd know because Britain would have been overwhelmed in the air war immediately and troops would have landed in England.
The Tripartite Pact was an alliance, the black fascists agreed on mutual defense terms. Molotov-Ribbentrop was painting new lines on a map and agreeing on trade and, as mentioned, literally no credible experts view it otherwise.
Was Stalin staging Soviet airplanes in German territory? Massing Soviet troops in Axis territory anywhere to threaten their neighbors? No? Lending the Luftwaffe planes?
... would you like to mention the signatories of the Tripartite Pact for the sake of the rest of the class?
Germany, Italy, and Japan. Despite the name, there were several other signatories, particularly in the Balkans, as Europe began to bend the knee.
Did you think Russia signed it?
... do you think Finland signed it?
Jesus Christ.
I redirect you to
Do you think you can only have one alliance?
Actual clown shit bro. Just admit they helped the Nazis and that That Was Bad Even If Not Quite As Bad As The Axis Proper.
Btw, this was your boy Ryti's end goal from the indisputable military alliance only a fucking liar would argue wasn't a thing with 100k-200k Nazis attacking from Finnish territory:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Finland
I literally said as much in my very first comment. It's not my fault you're falling over yourself to bootlick Soviet tag-teaming genocide with the Nazis because, I don't know, Finns bad or something. Apparently two things can't be bad at once.
Where the fuck is your reading comprehension?
Wherever you keep your intellectual honesty in this comment chain started by revisionist nationalism.
So you have no actual response to the fact that your statement of
is based off the fact that you couldn't be arsed to read what I've said because you were tripping over your own shoes to deepthroat a Soviet jackboot?
"Just admit to the very first thing you said". Fuck's sake.
I'll be real with you, I argued with ten different shitlibs that allying with Nazi Germany was Bad so I missed your qualifying statement at the end of your three innaccurate and misleading claims.
Ah yes, inaccurate or misleading claims like [checks notes] easily verifiable campaigns of genocide by the Soviets?
And if you'd talked about their actual ethnic cleansing campaigns you'd have a point, or if it was a point worth bringing up at all in this context of deliberately helping the execution of Generalplan Ost.
You mean like how... the Soviets deliberately helped the execution of Generalplan Ost in assisting Nazi Germany to take massive amounts of Polish lebensraum with plentiful amounts of untermensch for them to massacre?
Are you arguing that Stalin was deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the USSR by agreeing to partition a country the Nazis needed no help to conquer?
No, just deliberately helping the plans for the Nazi conquest of the 'east' that wasn't under the USSR's control. Or was Generalplan Ost only bad insofar as the Soviet Union was targeted, and the Poles deserved their untermensch fate?
'Needed no help to conquer'
Fuck's sake. The Soviet invasion from the east destroyed the Polish military's entire defence plan. Is this really where we're at for justification of the Soviets literally assisting the Nazi invasion of a country the Nazis openly wanted to exterminate? "The Nazis would have conquered those filthy Poles anyway"? Are you being fucking serious right now?
I didnt say it was okay, Pug, I said Poland was literally doomed and that's a fact from the moment the French refused to leave the Line and the British refused to put troops in Poland before the invasion. Their plans meant nothing when they wouldn't work because they simply didn't have the tools to win.
I also really don't like defending Stalin's obvious class treason and rampant incompetence, and it's not like you're wrong that he's a mass murderer, Pug, it's just that it's fucked up and revisionist to compare the Soviet displacement programs to the attempted extermination of half the world.
Their plan wasn't to win, their plan was to stall for time for France and Britain to get their asses in gear. A plan which was destroyed by the Soviet invasion. How many Poles died because the Nazis were given half the country with minimal fuss and maximum speed? Not even getting into how many Poles died directly because of Soviet genocide.
You said
And the answer to that is yes, Stalin absolutely was helping the plans for Nazi conquest and genocide by agreeing to partition a country directly targeted for Nazi genocide by employing the full force of the Soviet military against them while said country was already engaged in a desperate war for survival.
Fuck, man, at no point have I claimed that the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis. I HAVE said the Soviets are just as bad as the Finns. I've made two claims here:
The Soviets were genocidal towards Poland.
The Soviets and the Finns both collaborated with the Nazis and contributed significantly and knowingly to genocidal Nazi goals with the aid of military force, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians at minimum, and thus neither really has the high ground on that.
Claiming that the Soviets weren't running an extermination campaign against the Polish nation, as you repeatedly claimed, contradicts point 1. I emphasized, when you brought it up, that genocides do not have to be literally Nazi-level to be genocides. MOST genocides are not Nazi-level. Even the Holodomor wasn't Nazi-level, but I would regard anyone playing whataboutism games with it as a genocide-apologist fuck all the same. And I emphasized that the Soviets absolutely cooperated with the Nazis in order to both assist Nazi genocide of Poland (for their own aims of destroying Poland as a security threat) and to pursue genocide of the Polish nation on their own (for their own domestic and strategic goals).
'Soviet displacement programs' is, again, downplaying what was a very real program of genocide. If I called Generalplan Ost's outlines for the dispersion of the remaining non-slaughtered Slavic peoples as a 'displacement program', I would be downplaying Nazi plans of genocide just the same.
Displacement programs are a recognized type of genocide, that's literally just the specific term for it.
So you brought up the Tripartite Alliance in a discussion about Finland, contrasting the Tripartite Alliance with the accusation towards the Soviets having done the exact same thing as the Finns, in order to show...
... what, again?
You're the one who falsely claimed the Soviets and Axis had an alliance. I pointed to what actual alliances are, since you seemed to be confused by the idea.
We both know you're too smart to actually believe the situations are comparable.
You're absolutely right. The Soviets actively pursuing the destruction of a sovereign nation by cooperating with the literal fucking Nazis, in the interest of the Soviet Union's desire to quite literally genocide the Polish people, not unlike the Nazis, isn't really comparable to the Finns cooperating with the literal fucking Nazis to retake territory that was seized and ethnically cleansed from them.
The Finnish choice is unforgivable, but you're right, the Soviet choice was much worse. On account of being an active pursuit of genocide as well as an instrument to the Nazi genocide.
Soviet Russian chauvinism in the context of pan-Slavism was many things, but it wasn't genocidal towards Poles as an ethnicity. Murderous towards anyone that might be able to rally resistance, certainly, and it exploited ethnic divides in the time honored tradition of any colonizing power, but it wasn't anything like Generalplan Ost and you know it.
Oh yes, the Sovs just executed 100,000 Poles in the USSR in '38, and killed and deported another million and a half in Poland itself in 39-41 because they were uninterested in genocide. Brilliant. Just brilliant.
Oh, cool, the Holodomor wasn't anything like Generalplan Ost either, so I guess the Holodomor wasn't genocidal either.
No, because the Holodomor and eradication of the Crimean Tartars were specific eradication campaigns unlike the Soviet mass executions in Poland, glad we cleared that up.
Would you like to elaborate how the Soviet mass executions and deportations in Poland were not eradication campaigns, but that the deportation of the Crimean Tatars and the Holodomor were eradication campaigns? Walk me through your criteria here. Is targeting a specific ethnicity for mass executions and deportation in the name of eradicating the nation not eradication in some way that I'm unaware of?
Walk me through how executing 5% of the Polish nation in your newly conquered territories and deporting another 25% inside of two years isn't genocide. Walk me through how targeting Poles specifically in the newly conquered territories, rather than other ethnicities living in what-was-previously-Poland, isn't an eradication campaign.
Please. Enlighten me.
Because the ethnic cleansing of Poles as a cleansing mostly happened in Ukraine and Belarus? You know where they shipped most Ukrainian and Belarusian Poles to?
Poland!
There's obviously a lot to say about THAT in a Glorious Communist Utopia but it's pretty hard to argue Stalin was ethnically cleansing Poland of Poles when he was also shipping more ethnic Poles into Poland.
Now if you want to argue that Belarus was Polish territory before the Tsars conquered it there's at least a point there.
Are you taking the piss right now.
A million Poles are deported from Poland itself, some 150,000+ are outright executed, and you're saying that the Soviets were performing these atrocities on a larger scale in Ukraine and Belarus, when there weren't even a million Poles in the whole of the USSR.
Are you fucking stupid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Poland_and_Soviet_Ukraine
From your own source
Couldn't do it in 1941, now could they?
Don't forget the part where America and Britain agreed.
...
We're talking about a genocide that happened 1938-1941
Yes, I remember when America and Britain said "Wow, you go Stalin, I love that you've expelled and exterminated over a quarter of the Polish nation in the land that was once Poland, a sovereign state that one of us was outright allied with!" in 1941.