this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2024
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Is the "help or reference" coming from other workers?
... It's coming from the culmination of, like 5 decades of absurdly educated engineering. If you want to call them workers, then sure.
They weren't workers? is this "absurdly educated engineering" like a magic ghost inhabiting the halls of Apple HQ? Is this "engineering" in the room with us right now?
Seriously, I fail to grasp the point you're trying to make here...
.......you do know what engineering is, right? It's... Definitely not a magic ghost inhabiting halls. It's learning physics, electronics, programming, and, well, engineering to create novel solutions to problems people have.
My point is that capitalism, for all of its failures, does indeed sometimes produce better things. You unequivocally hating on it, for no discernable reason; I I can't find a reason for that.
You do know that engineering doesn't exist independently, right? It comes from humans. And you know what those humans typically are? Workers.
[Citation needed].
Workers produce better things. Have been doing it before capitalism and will be doing it after. There's no need for a leecher class above them.
I'm starting to think you're not just playing devil's advocate...
How will we educate those workers, in order to produce better things? I guess some "workers" will be smarter than others. More intelligent. Should we send those stupider workers to the fields? Make them work off their stupidity while the genius, better workers invent new machines?
blinks
What does education have to do with anything? How does that even follow towards someone "sending them to the fields"? This is the mother of non-sequiturs...
Do...do you think education itself exists because of Capitalism?!
No, and I never said that I did. Do I think that people are motivated to be educated and create things by capitalism? Yes, of course. It's provably happened on both of our lifetimes.
Does that make capitalism the best solution? No. But obviously you're gonna need to provide more data against it to convince other people. This is a weak argument.
People were motivated to be educated and create things long before capitalism and will be long after capitalism.
Yes, I think I've already agreed to that fact. Which brings us back to: how should we pay for those people to be educated? Who should we choose to create things? What should we do with everybody else?
We don't have to "pay" to be educated outside of the capitalist system. "Paying" for education is a capitalist thing. In fact, most places outside of the US don't expect people to pay to be educated. Even within capitalism, various people have found ways to make education and healthcare a public service. Imagine that...
People who want to choose it themselves?
"We" don't "do" anything with other people.
Well, no. Paying professors isn't free. Some places just hide their salaries in their tax money. But sure. Everyone gets education (I agree with this). Some people choose to be artists and... I guess they just fend for themselves?
Now, let's be absurd. Pretend I'M a artist. I made a blank canvas, and I'm willing to sell it.
They laugh at your notion of money but you do you bro, they invite you home to share some of the excess of food that has been harvested by the people that had an honest desire to feed their fellow humans, instead of... getting power through making art?
I've yet to see how capitalism has done that where other systems could not, though?
The capitalists are the ones who own Apple in the OP, so the designers using decades of research are still workers. Apple paying them a bunch to work together is what gets them to make the iphone, sure, but you can't say that no other system wouldn't have eventually had a similar invention
In fact, I'm quite certain that if we had a more anarchistic system instead of capitalism we'd have gotten phones or something similar sooner, as groups of nerds were working on them as early hobby projects but told to stop by their bosses and work on other more profitable shit instead
It's coming from someone who dedicated their entire life to being smarter than you or me about electronics.
Go on. Give your opinion.
Is/was that person not a worker?
At what point do they stop benefiting from their labor? They obviously can't keep working in the next things and the next thing. They might be a one trick pony. You would need robust social programs like ubi.
Eventually the money to start the process comes from somewhere like a bank or private loans. Sure, the workers could fund the venture by themselves, but nobody wants to take that kind of risk. Taking a job at a company is basically paying money to avoid risk.
Workers take plenty of risk to change jobs, homes, and even countries for a new job. The risks they take are comparatively much more significant than a venture of a millionaire or billionaire capitalist. That risk is somehow not rewarded under capitalism. Not to mention that the capitalist "risk" is nothing more than a scare tactic
That aside, someone "putting in money" doesn't mean they were useful and deserve any credit. It just means that you have an unjust system where the actual innovators have to agree to be exploited to survive.
It's extremely difficult to get started. I suppose I could live in a van down by the river and dumpster dive until I can make money from a product or service. However, many products and services require multiple workers to accomplish. If course businesses exploit workers and prevent competition. Those things should be addressed. However, it becomes extremely difficult to add a layer of fairness because some people will say that they deserve more than another person. Some people will get jobs based on who they know and who likes them. Does everyone get paid equally? Do you measure performance on some way? That creates competing interests and competition among workers. I worked in a shop under a "flat rate" system. It was constant bullshit with some guys doing anything they could to steal work from other guys. People would lie to get more work or bill customers for extra labor. It was a shit show.
Anarchist chad: Yes.
So, you've chosen violence
Nonsense
It's extremely difficult to get started.
But it would be easier to start if you got a fair amount for your labor and everyone you're going to work with pooled in.
The current system isn't fair either. Ultimately your boss decides what you get paid. They could be a benevolent dictator but they could also try to stiff you, you will never know. Now, we might not make it fair but we can definitely make it fairer. One way is democratization of the work place. Essentially everyone gets a say, say in how the revenue is split, say in who gets hired, say in whether there should be preformance metrics and if there should then also what those metrics should be.
And that's not some only theoretical idea, cooperatives are real life examples of this working. They aren't point by point as the examples I gave, but they do follow the concept of implementing democracy in the work place.