this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2023
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[–] MrSilkworm@lemmy.world 218 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (21 children)

Fear of cheap Chinese EVs spurs automaker dash for affordable cars

fear of competition spurs automakers to make competitive products. FTFY

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[–] Fake4000@lemmy.world 180 points 11 months ago (15 children)

Honestly, just take a basic normal car, and replace its engine with an electric one. No on screen entertainment, no cameras, no AI bull shit, no self driving. Just as basic as it gets.

[–] netburnr@lemmy.world 86 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Backup cameras are required on all 2018 or newer vehicles in the US and Canada, so you will need at least one in the back and a small screen for that, maybe hide that screen in the review.

This imaginary basic car should also come with a double-din radio so it can be upgraded like the old days.

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[–] Usernameblankface@lemmy.world 43 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Yes, the absolute basic required technology to make it road legal, physical switches and either physical gauges or a non-touch screen for gauges if that's cheaper.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 48 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Physical switches > screens. It's much harder to develop the muscle memory for a screen. I don't have to look away from the road with switches.

[–] Usernameblankface@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

Absolutely, they're so much better

[–] evranch@lemmy.ca 43 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The reason everything is on a touch screen now is that it's cheaper than physical switches, as ridiculous as that seems. And yes, I greatly prefer physical switches.

Buy and wire multiple switches on every car, requiring wiring harnesses, ECM IO pins etc. or pay an intern a minimal sum once so he can put "designed Chevrolet in-dash console" on his resume. Then never update it even though it supports OTA updates and is a glitchy mess, Chevy

This is the same reason so many products come with a stupid Bluetooth app now rather than more than one button. Pay once rather than pay on every unit.

[–] Usernameblankface@lemmy.world 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Hmm. In that case, physical buttons is the one luxury I'd pay a premium for.

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[–] AnneBonny@lemmy.dbzer0.com 42 points 11 months ago (1 children)

They don't know how to market something that doesn't have a bunch of gimmicky bullshit.

[–] shasta@lemm.ee 32 points 11 months ago

"Get your cheap, reliable EVs here!" Done. You can pay me that $100k marketing salary whenever it's convenient.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

The problem is you can’t efficiently electrify a vehicle designed for fossil fuels. The requirements differ too much.

Actually EV conversions were common before we got intentionally designed EVs and the original Tesla roadster was built on a standard Lotus body and frame, but luckily we’re beyond that now.

You can still choose to electrify a vehicle now but you get poor performance and range, unbalanced handling, and pay way too much for a mediocre vehicle. It’s bot worth it

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[–] Treczoks@lemmy.world 97 points 11 months ago (8 children)

If you see that European car makers sell the same car in China for less than half than they charge at home, you know they are basically milking us just for extra profit.

[–] Daiken@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Not true. Most products aren't the cost of the materials. There are a lot of included expenses in the price of a product like the cost of labor. They're also not the same cars.

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[–] DrunkenPirate@feddit.de 96 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

There‘s a word for that „Greedflation.“ This is what western car makers do. Luckily, the Cinese car makers grasp their chance and disrupt the market

[–] alvvayson@lemmy.world 38 points 11 months ago (2 children)

While that is part of it, the other, bigger part is that Western countries actually do have higher labour costs: better salaries and conditions for our workers.

When China was outcompeting us on undesirable, low productivity, jobs, we accepted that. It was better to raise a billion Chinese out of poverty than to protect our lowest productivity factory workers. And those workers mostly transitioned to other jobs with higher productivity.

But now China is richer and their labour force is shrinking, so they will compete with highly productive factory jobs.

Politically, it is unlikely that car workers will accept unemployment. Nor will other highly paid workers.

So a trade war is brewing, you better brace yourself for it.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 77 points 11 months ago (10 children)

China wasn't "outcompeting us on undesirable, low productivity, jobs". Corporations were shipping jobs to China to undercut highly productive factory jobs back then, too, so they could save on labor costs. It's only now that China is undercutting corporate profits that these same corporations come crying and shitting their pants. That's also why you see a ramping up of negative media pieces on China. It was never about charitably raising people out of poverty. It was always about corporations undercutting labor to gain greater profits. Fuck 'em, bring on the cheap cars.

[–] Holyhandgrenade@lemmy.world 24 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children)

I hate it when corpos use the "oh we can't lower prices because our staff is getting paid too much"-narrative. What about the CEO who takes half the profits for himself?
It's the workers who create value for a company, they don't take it away by getting paid for their work.

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[–] DrunkenPirate@feddit.de 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Don’t think labor costs is a big factor. Car production is the sector that is most automated. Just think of this endless bands of hanging cars with robot arms working on it. Tesla even topped this.

It’s mainly the unwillingness to design and sell cheap cars due to less profits. In Germany we had electric cars for 20k€ or even combustion cars under 15k€. But they stopped building it. Although it was sold out in weeks.

In my region there was a Startup by the Aachen University RWTH (which is an elite university in Germany) bulding small EVs for around 20k€. They simply bought all parts from suppliers and just assembled it. And engineered and designed it first. Unionized and still competitive. Unfortunately, they didn’t fly.

EV building is rather simple. The software is key. And this is the missing part at car makers capabilities.

I second your thoughts on trade war. However, I guess it will be much simpler with high taxes, high quality regulations, and may be less support by car workshops. We will see…

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[–] lagomorphlecture@lemm.ee 87 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Nooooo anything but more environmentally friendly vehicles that people can actually afford. Won't somebody think of the profits?

[–] kameecoding@lemmy.world 52 points 11 months ago (16 children)

not sure about environmentally friendly,friendlier sure, but a well developed public transit system and biking infrastructure beats any kind of car based infrastructure

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (19 children)

Complements. The reason we’re stuck in this auto-dystopia (are we auto-asphyxiating? ;-) is people wanting one size fits all infrastructure. Let’s apply this more intelligently this time - recognize that some areas are more built up than others and different solutions scale differently . In general that can be a good thing, but we need interconnected services for everyone. That does include cars in many areas, although I agree a worthwhile goal for cities/town centers is that people not need a car

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[–] dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee 12 points 11 months ago (2 children)

We need the incrementally more eco-friendly options as well. Most pickup truck driving office workers won't suddenly get a bike and change their ways, so a more eco friendly personal vehicle is probably a lot more likely to reduce emissions for that demography.

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[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 82 points 11 months ago (2 children)

My God the Chinese are at it again beating the United States at capitalism

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 59 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

It's not on, it really isn't, the Chinese shouldn't be allowed to engage in the free market. They're supposed to be the enemy.

They should be sanctioned so that Western car makers can continue to put out vehicles for ludicrous prices, the way God intends.

[–] penquin@lemm.ee 40 points 11 months ago (11 children)

I get your sarcasm, but Chinese products are life savers in 3rd world countries like mine. My brother bought a Chinese pickup truck for $3500 brand new. American trucks are at least 10 times that. People there work a whole month for $500 - $900. No one can and will never afford that shit. Same goes for other products like cellphones, computers.... Etc. an iPhone there costs $1200 - $1400 and a Chinese one costs $300 max and it does the job no problem. People in those countries love China.

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[–] Ardiente@ttrpg.network 16 points 11 months ago (15 children)

I know someone is going to read that and not get the implied /s

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[–] silencioso@lemmy.world 49 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Hear me out: a bare minimum electronics car extremely reliable, no screens no bells and whistles and with the smallest possible engine battery that costs less than $5.000 💥

[–] SlopppyEngineer@discuss.tchncs.de 25 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

Citroën Ami is available. Closer to $8000 and technically a quadricycle. All bare minimum to make it street legal.

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[–] vivadanang@lemm.ee 33 points 11 months ago (11 children)

gee the market has been clamoring for a decade while the auto industry said "BIG TRUCKS AND SUV'S!"

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[–] bufalo1973@lemmy.ml 25 points 11 months ago

"We can't lower the prices, it's impossible so soon"

[–] altima_neo@lemmy.zip 21 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Yeah but where can I get these cheap Chinese EVs? I've never seen any for sale in the States

[–] MonsiuerPatEBrown@reddthat.com 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

https://electrek.co/2021/06/16/i-bought-an-inexpensive-electric-pickup-truck-from-china-and-you-can-too/

The $2,000 price was legit, but that didn’t include batteries. It was another $300 or so for heavy lead acid batteries, $500 if I wanted a lithium-ion battery pack (3 kWh), $710 for a bigger lithium pack (5 kWh), and $1,050 if I wanted a giant lithium battery (6 kWh).

The article goes on to say that shipping is a big deal, too. It requires thousands for a space in a container. But the total clocked under $9K IIRC

[–] tagliatelle@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)
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[–] Reality_Suit@lemmy.one 12 points 11 months ago

So they CAN make cars cheaper. I bet they still post profit while claiming they're losing money.

[–] onlinepersona@programming.dev 11 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Somewhat unrelated: IINM most Europeans don't drive even a quarter of the max range of EVs on most of their trips. The current range of EVs should be just fine it you plug it in every day like your phone. Getting an EV that can get you to work and back or to a friend and back without charging should already allow to buy an EV that's quite affordable.

[–] MoodyRaincloud@feddit.nl 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Most Europeans have one, max 2 cars per household. A fuckton of Europeans also go on holiday with their cars once or twice a year.

One car needs to work for most use cases. It's fine if you have more cars than people in the house that one of them is a 100 mile range commuter, but a different kettle of fish if the same car needs to do an 800+ mile trip to the Mediterranean in summer and a 500 mile ski trip in winter.

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