Law enforcement should not be militarized. Sweden just copying America's mistakes.
this post was submitted on 29 Sep 2023
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Bear with me for a second. I am going to agree and disagree with you a bit.
While our law enforcement has more than its share of problems, I can't really think of any instances where it was militarized. Believe me, I am absolutely not a fan of police overreach or some of the idiot, power hungry cops that are out there.
There were some cases where different police agencies did receive surplus military equipment, for whatever reason. Weird, sure. Militarized, not quite. One or two armored personnel carriers does not make a military out of a police department.
We do have the national guard, and they have come in handy a few times. When the US has riots, we tend to have them on a fairly grand scale. It takes some serious manpower to manage them and local police simply don't have the resources. (1967: 12th Street riots; 82nd and 101st Airborne had to be called in after the National Guard)
Personally, I have been in ordered to shelter in place a couple of times when I lived in the D.C. area when SWAT had to lock down a block or two. Honestly, given the circumstances, I am quite glad that they had the equipment they had. The US has some really nasty places, for sure.
Should the a military be deployed because of rampant gang violence? Sure, if the manpower is needed and it's for a short time. However, it absolutely should bring laser focus on the fact that these gangs weren't disolved properly to begin with. If the government is being forced to apply controls to the entire population, there is something seriously wrong.
So, in short, the police shouldn't be militarized themselves, but sometimes having additional manpower on standby can be a good thing.
It can go absolutely overboard and I think we can look at the instability in Africa right now to prove that.
Bear with me for a second. I am going to agree and disagree with you a bit.
Have an upvote for excellent Netiquette.
In Germany, the military cannot be deployed to use force inside Germany's borders in peacetime. This is part of the constitution. The military must not be used as a domestic instrument of power. You can guess where this is coming from. As such I always view it quite critically when other countries do this, because there is definitely a danger to it.
Police in America: Poopy Diaper Police in other developed countries: Fresh Diaper
As ACAB as I am, at least the units they seem they will deploy have more than a daycamps worth of training. The problem with militarized forces in these situations is it can aggravate it further if not handled properly.
I'm looking at you 1985 Phillidalphia MOVE standoff. Even though they weren't a 'gang' but just defying the law together in a non-threatening way; the police took to just bombing the whole city block.
When you say they should focus on the dissolving of the gangs is exactly correct. Bringing force en masse to combat situational instances won't stop the problem from growing, you need to strategically remove the kingpins quickly to have the lower echelon fall apart. This also in turn with leaneancy on potential criminal whistleblowers, so those associated already have a 'scapegoat' to get out of that environment.
I could be totally wrong though, this is all based off my perceptions as a Midwest American. I just assume the offenders are members of the same community.
Agreed, this is how you stop the police from militarizing themselves.
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Meh, this military stuff is such an exaggeration. It’s mainly about politicians wanting to look like they are strong and doing stuff.
The military are by law allowed to carry out some tasks the police force can. The main example that has been brought up, is to guard buildings of importance. They also have other skills when it comes to technology, and could help the police with knowledge there. That’s the gist of it.
Would not call that copy anyone’s mistakes at all to be honest.
Uh, America doesn't mobilize the fucking army when a handful of gang members shoot each other.
No, the military has rules of engagement and accountability, when they shoot the wrong person they go to Leavenworth, not paid vacation.
There are pretty fair number of Iraqis that would disagree with your claim in regards to factual reality, but yes, and Posse Comitatus is one of those rules.
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And the authoritarians keep moving up their positions.
The debate over here is fucking crazy, the post-fascist backed government is sneering at any proposed solution with any nuance or suggested preventative measures included. It's all fucking military intervention, insane deregulation of policing, surveillance, harsher punishments, regressive drug policy, and anti immigration populism.
Do we have an uptick in violence because of a very specific ongoing gang conflict, yes. But Jesus Christ, not anywhere near the level that would excuse anything close to this.
I agree that the current government is implementing exactly 0 long-term strategies to help deal with the root cause of the problems, like strengthening and financing social services and welfare, healthcare and mental healthcare, schools and social programs, decriminalizing some drugs etc, to curb influx of underage criminals into the gangs and remove some of the economical incentives. The opposition is coming out with good suggestion after good suggestion, and the right-wing (by Swedish standards) government has basically just slashed welfare across the board in practice. They are going for only the hard-on-crime approach, which as far as I know has no real scientific proof of long-term efficacy unless paired with social/community interventions.
However, I think many swedes agree that the police need more resources - particularly people watching possible targets of future bombings and just more eyes on the gangs. We have one of the lowest number of police per capita in Europe, slightly higher than the rest of the Nordic countries tbf, but with much bigger problems with organized crime and violence.
I'm also horrified at this general societal development, but I can see the merit of involving some of the military in more eyes-on-the-ground kinds of operations for a few years until we have more of a grip on the gang situation. I prefer that to visitation zones, harsher punishments and more generalized surveillance of non-suspects being allowed.
But maybe I'm just naïve to the implications.
Yeah, I don't really disagree fundamentally with any of this apart from the fact that I don't think involving the military at this point is anywhere near warranted. We'll have to see what happens I guess, I think it could be mostly saber rattling. "Look how seriously we're taking this!".
But more police, and specifically more police on tasks that actually matter and aren't just being pursued to pad their stats? That's fine.
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In Ireland we have the special criminal court, it allows for the views of officials to be taken as evidence. Absolutely ripe for corruption but so far it hasn't been used for that. It is a closed door court with only the accused and the verdict being open to the public.
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These fascist fucks love to pretend that gang violence and poverty just appear out of nowhere, and their immediate recourse is always escalation of very same state violence that generated the unrest.
It was the Social Democrats (Swedens' biggest socialist party) who suggested the use of the military.
But of course, you have no goddamn clue as to what the hell you're talking about and your ignorance shows.
And anyone up voting these sentiments: the issue is more complex, and please read up on the issue and build a complete picture.
"Socialists" can be fascists too, if they're using government violence to quell dissent caused by government failure.
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What is causing this rise in Sweden? I'm not really up to speed on Swedish news or politics.
The most recent increase is from one of the largest gangs splintering. Different groupings and gangs are attacking each other and each others families, trying to gain power. Is what the news seems to say.
On the larger scale, if you look to scientists, criminologists, and not politicians, there are a lot of contributing factors. Hardest anti-drugs laws in Europe, more or less, failing school systems, failing integration, gentrification. All contribute to create a high risk high reward enviornment that seem worth it to a lot of people compared to a more ordinary life.
I think your comment has been the most helpful so far. I had no clue that Sweden had strict drug laws. Thanks for the reply!
I wonder why the headlines seem to focus on Sweden right now when the other countries of western Europe seem to have similar issues right now.
Highest anti-drug laws? In Sweden??
The entire shtick of this story is that Sweden is one of the most lenient when it comes to policing, and one of the most generous when it comes to social safety net, and it still won't stop crime from escalating year over year
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Sweden has accepted a LOT of refugees over the last eight years. Now 20% of the entire country is foreign born. Much higher when you include second and third generation migrants.
Unfortunately, migrants in Sweden are far over-represented in crime. Especially violent crime: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338563093_Migrants_...
All of the bombings, for example, are gang related, and gang members in Sweden have a disproportionately foreign background.
Almost all gang members in Sweden are either 1st- or 2nd-generation migrants: https://www.gulf-insider.com/almost-all-gang-members-in-sweden-are-either-1st-or-2nd-generation-migrants/amp/
What’s clear from the data is that not all refugees commit crime at the same rate. Refugees from Vietnam, for example, committed very low crime. Ditto for Ukrainian refugees. Syrian and Somali refugees, on the other hand, have sky high crime. Sweden has accepted a lot of refugees from these regions, among others.
Over-representation in crime has a lot of reasons. Yes, one of them is the cultural dimension, but every single time these statistics are normalized for socioeconomic status, it drops immediately to levels extremely close to those of Swedes born to Swedish parents. Time and time again these statistics come to the same old boring conclusion we all know: poverty, lack of integration, having no way to enter the job market, discrimination. These are the reasons we see the results we see today.
"Immigrants" is not the reason for crime. This is flawed logic. What is the reason immigrants are overrepresented in statiscis? That's the real question. You comment ignores what immigrants have brought to Sweden which has been extremely positive.
Immigrants in Sweden have higher education and yet only end up in low-paying jobs. . Despite these difficulties, they have in finding jobs that fit their qualification level, and as of 2020, "34 per cent of all practising medical doctors and 12 per cent of all nurses in Sweden are immigrants. Sweden’s most common profession is personal care worker or assistant nurse (undersköterska). Of all 183,000 assistant nurses, 48,329 or 26 per cent were born abroad. The most common region of origin of assistant nurses was Asia, which includes the Middle East." (source). I work in tech and we constantly have a "shortage of talent", and a large portion of programmers I know are non-Swedish. We could go on about this for days.
Basically, if "immigrants" in Sweden (however you may like to define it and however many people you can lump into that term) were to not go to work tomorrow, Sweden would stand still and the clinics won't function.
Over-representation in crime has a lot of reasons. Yes, one of them is the cultural dimension, but every single time these statistics are normalized for socioeconomic status, it drops immediately to levels extremely close to those of Swedes born to Swedish parents.
Sweden studied this: https://bra.se/publikationer/arkiv/publikationer/2023-03-01-socioekonomisk-bakgrund-och-brott.html
Most people who come from a socio-economically less favourable background do not commit more crime than people who come from a more favourable background, and it also happens that people from a more favourable background do commit crime. This means that even if there is a connection between socio-economic background and involvement in crime, that connection is weak. It is not possible to appreciably predict who will commit crimes based on knowledge of people's socio-economic background.
Instead, other risk factors have a stronger relationship with criminal behaviour. When compared with factors that research has identified as risk factors for crime, such as parenting competence, the presence of conflicts in the family, school problems or association with criminal peers, the research shows that these have a stronger connection with criminal behaviour than socio-economic background factors. The same applies to risk factors linked to the individual himself, for example permissive attitudes or impulsivity.
In other words, the cultural component is far more important than the socio-economic component. Over the decades, Europe has accepted migrants of many different cultures, and despite also being poor, many of these communities commit far less crime.
“Immigrants” is not the reason for crime. This is flawed logic. What is the reason immigrants are overrepresented in statiscis? That’s the real question. You comment ignores what immigrants have brought to Sweden which has been extremely positive.
No one is blaming all immigrants for crime. As per the data, some specific immigrants are responsible for the majority of crime, per capita.
Basically, if “immigrants” in Sweden (however you may like to define it and however many people you can lump into that term) were to not go to work tomorrow, Sweden would stand still and the clinics won’t function.
Some immigrants are doctors, and as above, no one is complaining about them. The immigrants people are complaining about are the ones committing horrific crimes. [alternative Swedish source] This is one story of thousands and thousands and thousands. That nine year old girl was left brain damaged after suffering brutal rape by a man who had recently been granted asylum.
This is the conclusion from the study you linked.
One thing I've seen often is that people who claim "certain types of immigrants" are problematic don't read studies properly or cherry pick what they like.
no one is complaining about them
No, they just complain about people who look like them, have the same skin color as them, and sometimes them (by mistake, I suppose?). "No one" is a huge generalizing in this time when even the highly-skilled "right" type of immigrants are now having problems thanks to this SD rhetoric, and some are even considering leaving the country.
Unfortunately a lot of those committing those crimes now are teenagers who have lost touch with society and they are most likely Swedish citizens by now. So how do we go from here?
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Right now it's an internal gang conflict that has escalated to killing relatives, and at least one mom. It's become brutal enough to happen in the open streets in some cases, and there's been a few unrelated innocents caught in the cross fire as well. The split seems to partly be over the use of younger and younger kids for the deeds, and the escalating brutality.
The gang in question is the Foxtrot Network led by Rawa Majid, who is funnily enough hiding in Turkey and has apparently had help by a high up turkey police official.
That's the very quick version, but there should be quite a bit of info if you google "Rawa Majid Foxtrot".
Curious too. Scandinavian countries have such a reputation for being modern and progressed nations with a perfectly working welfare state and high internal stability and ideally dutiful citizens.
Not really a decent picture anymore. Some handpicked examples: Schools are now the most privatized in the world, in a charter-system where public money gets poured into private companies -- one of which the heads of have been giving money to an anti-semitic far-right news paper. This has gentrified schools and ruined the public ones, and inflated the grades. The current government consists of/is supported by a party (~20% of votes) that was formed by literal nazis, not neo-nazis, but literal SS volunteering nazis, the current head of the party joined them just after the peak of the neo-nazi era, in which they, among other things celebrated a racist serial killer. Him and the closest circle of party elites, to this day, party with well a recognized neo-nazi band, calls any association to LGBTQ and pride "pedophilia", and believes in the same conspiracy that the mass-murderer Breivik did: that there is a conspiracy of "multiculturalists" that have the explicit goal to exterminate the swedish nation and people. Their politics and hate gets next to zero push back from the other governing parties, and a lot of their policies are now being made law or are being prepared to become laws.
All of this is correct. I'd just like to add that, additionally, over the last couple of decades we have also systematically and agressively cut most taxes that mostly hit the very wealthy. Yes, (for now) we still have a somewhat functional wellfare system, but the wealth inequality is crazy high, which causes a lot of social stress and conflict.
For some quick examples:
- We have a uniquely regressive tax on real estate. There is a value cap over which no more tax is added, and that cap is CRAZY low, meaning someone with a mansion is not taxed significantly more than someone with a small house.
- We have insanely low taxes on capital gains, which are a bit complicated to explain but essentially means that on a good year you might pay the equivalent of low single digit percent tax on the value increase.
All of this while the tax on actual work is very high, making it harder for those not already born with capital to aquire it.
I believe the majority of adult Swedes are like that, but the welfare system is not getting a decent budget, the healthcare system is overworked (especially in niche areas like child psychiatry). The current government has abandoned all of these important aspects and instead focused on wasting people's taxes, creating confusing and unsatisfactory budgets, ruining the climate goal for 2030 (which Sweden was going to meet) and focusing solely on linking immigration to crime (as the sole cause) and mistreating immigrabts even though they make up 40% of the medical workforce.
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This was re-posted to the same community, 13 hours later, by the same person.
I prefer actual cross-posts over detached reposts, but still hope this was a mistake. It splits the comment sections.
Thanks for spotting this. Looks like the article changed its title and updated the text after I posted it the first time.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
STOCKHOLM (AP) — Three people were killed overnight in separate incidents in Sweden as deadly violence linked to a feud between criminal gangs escalated.
Hours later, one man was killed and another was wounded in a shooting in Jordbro, south of the Swedish capital.
Two gangs — one led by a Swedish-Turkish dual national who lives in Turkey, the other by his former lieutenant — are reportedly fighting over drugs and weapons.
Earlier this week, two powerful explosions ripped through dwellings in central Sweden, injuring at least three people and damaging buildings, with bricks and window sections left spread outside.
On Thursday, Anders Thornberg, the police chief, said the feud “is a serious threat to the safety and security of the country” of 10 million people that is often considered a safe place with a low crime rate.
Strömmer said that it was “not relevant to deploy the military,” but that he was prepared to listen to all parties when it comes to solving the wave of violence.
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