this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
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[–] Haus@kbin.social 135 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Basing your opinions on socialism on how Russia implemented it makes about as much sense as basing an opinion on Democracy on how Putin has implemented it.

[–] sudo22@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Legit question, what country is a better real world example?

[–] Prunebutt@feddit.de 34 points 1 year ago (2 children)

1936 Catalonia.

But it is actually really hard to name examples. This video explains it quite well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4l_l1MedQ

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[–] Soup@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Communism, like capitalism, is an extreme that has certain, very difficult to achieve, requirements. Capitalism needs everyone to be morally decent in order for companies to focus on winning customers through innovation instead of propganda and lobbying, and to accept losses instead of whining. Even the transition into communism is incredibly complicated and technically what where the USSR was stuck, and once there you have to hope that the rest of the world went along with it because it’ll work either on increbily small scales(individual companies, for example) or on a global scale but not really on a mid-sized scale. Plus in both you have basic greed and people who are literally just born narcissitic or legitimately psychotic.

Extreme ideologies are great thought experiments but rarely have any kind of well-developed protections built and are pretty fragile.

If you want a better answer, look at the quality of life in countries with stronger regulations and more communism-according-to-North America systems. In the heavily privatised U.S. there are a lot of people who live absolutely shit lives due to an abyssmal lack of protections. Even in Canada, which is far too close to the U.S. here, at least a homeless person can recieve some level of medical assistance including major surgeries and Covid stimulus was more than a cheap joke.

Extreme

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[–] banneryear1868@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

Cuba, Vietnam, Allende's Chile perhaps, but it's not like any are perfect. There's a wide range of socialist approaches used in different countries around the world though.

Moderate socialist governments effectively weren't allowed to exist, the US sponsored fascist coups and did whatever they could to remove them. So the ones that were able to survive had to be more extreme, autocratic, and isolationist.

[–] Not_mikey@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

If your looking for modern day examples, the zapatistas are a pretty good example.

For historical examples you can look to the Paris commune, civil war Barcelona, the original zapatista movement.

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[–] patomaloqueiro@lemmy.ml 73 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is more accurate: Online discussion about capitalism

People living in a third world capitalist country

14-year-old white boy living in a Western country: I know more than you

[–] Prunebutt@feddit.de 64 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Considering that the USSR only claimed to be socialist and used propaganda (in accord with the US) to convince the people that state control is the same as worker's control over the means of production (it isn't), the girl is probably correct.

[–] dansity@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sir we are not doing reasons here, this is a meme sub.

[–] Prunebutt@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago

Memes can still be incoherent.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 53 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

14 year old white girl

Bravo they managed to also cram ageism and misogyny in the old "champagne socialism" meme. All in the single sentence.

[–] fosforus@sopuli.xyz 25 points 1 year ago (4 children)
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[–] spacesweedkid27@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago (22 children)

2 things:

  1. The victors write history

  2. After Lenin the USSR was not really communist anymore but more really a totalitarian state that didn't believe in the values of communism. Just like China.

Everything would probably have been better if Lenin didn't die so fast and then Trotsky would have ruled.

[–] Kerred@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago
  1. The victors write history

Flashback to stories of Rus conquests written by the Rus that said the people asked to be conquered

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[–] dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net 49 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This meme doesn’t work, because in the scene the image comes from, we have every reason to believe Ron Swanson actually does know more than the employee at the hardware store.

[–] doctorcrimson@lemmy.today 12 points 1 year ago

TBF I wouldn't be surprised if survivors of a collapsed dictatorship didn't know much about the definition, theories, or philosophies of Communism. Stalin isn't "the working people" and therefor his seizure of the means of production was not communism.

[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Pretty much Lemmy. I grew up in a communist civil war, hosing blood off my sidewalk was a weekly chore, the neighbors vanishing cause they pissed someone off and were labeled red. But yeah, Lemmy teens, you guys know all about it! /S

[–] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

Did you still use money to buy goods and services? Was your father able to do speak up at work? Change jobs? Go on vacations?

Just because something called itself communism didn't make it communism. The state owning everything is the opposite of communism. In extreme communism, there isn't even a damn state as we know it.

The people in the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea do not live in a democracy nor a republic.

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[–] Pieresqi@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (16 children)

Ah yes, "communism". Op show me 1 country with communism. Dictatorship with 'communism' in their name don't count.

[–] Sami_Uso@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wait are you telling me the Democratic Republic of North Korea is neither Democratic or a Republic?? Like they'd just lie?

[–] jcg@halubilo.social 6 points 1 year ago

You can't do that???

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[–] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

... apart from that it's also most unlikely it's 14 year old girls who are the people writing this in online discussions.

[–] Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)

※The person who lived in the USSR was born in December of 1991

[–] Erika2rsis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

A rambleI'm replying to my own comment to add: I'm barely even joking about this. Which is to say, actually having personal experience of living in a country can be very useful in discussions of it, but we also need to be aware of the limitations of lived experience.

For instance, I live in Norway, and I've met people here who didn't know that they had suffrage in local elections, and who didn't know the difference between national and local elections. I've met autistic people who know nothing about local autistic advocacy, trans people who know nothing about local trans advocacy, and I've met more people here who sincerely believe in "plandemic" conspiracy theories than who are even remotely aware of what Norwegian state-owned corporations have done in the global south. These people will go on and on about how "Americans are all idiots!" while simultaneously demonstrating a complete obliviousness to the actual political issues in their own backyards.

So sometimes people just don't know what they're talking about, simple as that. Lived experience should be respected, obviously, but it is not absolute nor immune from criticism. There are plenty of things that I've learned about the country where I live from people who have never set a foot in it — even things that feel so basic that I'm really embarrassed to admit that I didn't know them.

And we need to be particularly aware of this effect with regard to those who were children and adolescents in the USSR. Those who turned 18 when the USSR dissolved would be 50 years old now. Those who turned 18 when Stalin died would be 88 years old now. This obviously doesn't mean that you'll have no opportunities to chat with people who lived a significant portion of their adult lives in the USSR, I have done this myself... And that guy basically said that living in the USSR was the time of his life. I suspect that this might've had something to do with how he was a popular musician in his home republic, and how he was a comparatively young adult in the 1980s. Nevertheless, it was interesting to learn how one of his songs was actually a load of anti-evolutionist nonsense, which to me indicated that Soviet censorship was perhaps not as strict as a lot of people say it was... And again, seeing a grainy video cassette rip of this guy on Sukhumi's Red Bridge pointing to a giant monkey plush like a big ol' doofus, shows how not everybody in the USSR was the sharpest tool in the shed (sorry, Anzor!)

So if you find some 30-to-50-something year old who says that thon actually lived in the USSR and is therefore qualified to speak about it... Asking for thons lived experiences of the USSR is like asking a zoomer today for sy lived experiences of Dubya and Obama. Not to say that a child's perspective is worthless, just that it will be a child's perspective. Meanwhile, ask a 60-or-70-something year old, and chances are pretty good that you'll get nostalgia goggles of young adulthood. Ask an 80+ year old, and... Where the hell are you gonna find one of those? Especially if you can't speak Russian, your access to authentic Soviet perspectives is going to be severely limited.

On the other hand, if you ask someone who left the USSR for political reasons for thons experiences, then that's like asking someone who left the USA for political reasons for thons experiences: you're gonna hear an overtly negative perspective, and maybe some of that perspective will be useful, but that perspective is also not going to be representative of the majority experience, and it could've even been twisted by outside factors (obviously praising your new country is gonna increase your mobility in your new country!). Paul Robeson said of the USSR that being in that country was "the first time [he] felt like a human being".

So, the best way to be educated about the USSR is through scholarly analysis, which takes into account the lived experiences of a broad range of people as they recounted their lives at the time, and which also considers the factors that the individuals might not have been aware of. We should always be open to hearing people out, obviously, but we also always need to remember that nobody has all the answers — and so sometimes the 14 year old white Yankee really does know her shit better than the guy who actually lived in the country.

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[–] JasSmith@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (14 children)

I’ve never met anyone who hates communism more than the colleagues of mine who grew up under communism. Their neighbours disappeared for saying the wrong things. They were hungry and cold as children every day. Sometimes they didn’t have any shoes. They weren’t allowed to leave their country for holidays. They couldn’t afford it, even if they were allowed. They couldn’t study what they wanted. Their entire educational system was political propaganda. Freedom of religion didn’t exist.

It always amazes me how the most vocal proponents of communism come from the most sheltered, most privileged people alive who would retch from learning about the atrocities committed in the name of communism. If they only spent a few minutes on Google.

[–] pjhenry1216@kbin.social 30 points 1 year ago (13 children)

You're technically describing the downsides of authoritarianism, bordering on dictatorship, not communism. That being said, I don't believe communism would work either. Communism isn't the only system at play in those scenarios. Again, not defending communism as a good thing, just that the given reasons aren't actually due to communism but other parallel systems that were implemented at those times.

[–] Endorkend@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

The only way communism can work is if it's not run by people.

You'd need something like a benevolent AI overlord.

The problem with all forms of government and economy is that it involves human beings.

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[–] SpiderShoeCult@sopuli.xyz 14 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Also adding to the list of nice things - a picture of the current dictator on all public offices and classrooms. Work and school weeks from Monday to Saturday and a Sunday in which you had to do mandatory free time activities, like go to communist youth clubs, participate in parades for the glory of the state, or plant flowers or do random maintenance work in the park.

I've noticed the arguments tend to center around the notion that 'that wasn't true communism' and that the notions presented by Marx et al. were not properly implemented.

Fair enough, I can agree with that, but I'd wonder what makes us think that we would do it better next time? How do you actually prevent consolidation of power in the hands of the select few (in any system, for that matter, not just the ideal communism)?

Obligatory capitalism is bad too (but at least I'm in less danger of getting vanned in the middle of the night for insulting random great leader - attemtping to undermine the social order or whatever they called thoughtcrimes).

[–] NABDad@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Obligatory capitalism is bad too (but at least I'm in less danger of getting vanned in the middle of the night for insulting random great leader - attemtping to undermine the social order or whatever they called thoughtcrimes).

Capitalism requires the limits imposed by a strong, functional democracy, otherwise it drifts into horrifying tyranny.

Unrestrained capitalism can give communism a run for it's money in terms of genocide.

Edit: typo

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[–] someguy3@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

I don't think anyone is advocating for literal communism. They are advocating for social programs like, you know, universal healthcare and good public schools. Which the Gop and Fox have to scream is communism to scare people.

[–] deven@kerala.party 11 points 1 year ago

My state has communist background (kerala,India) I spent only 0.06USD for tetanus injection and consult Never had spent any penny on education(I have completed degree and diploma). Its because we had that kind of social programs. I am not advocating for stalin or mao. Evil is evil. Takes the benefits rather being inside capitalism and suffer.

[–] JasSmith@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are definitely people advocating for actual communism. Social programs in a democracy are worlds away from communism. We have universal healthcare in Europe without communism.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What people who lived in the Soviet union and other socialist states have to say:

This study shows that unprecedented mortality crisis struck Eastern Europe during the 1990s, causing around 7 million excess deaths. The first quantitative analysis of the association between deindustrialization and mortality in Eastern Europe.

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[–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

We all know a 14 year old black girls know their shit about communism.

[–] Album@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 year ago

I know it's a meme but if your points are this reductive you might not be making an intelligent or rational argument.

[–] ZILtoid1991@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Personally I find it going this way:

  • some person, who at least knows what socialism is, even if they're not the most well-read in the subject,
  • some way better read one, but thinks state control of enterprises suffice and trusts the state way too much as long as it has hammers and sickles,
  • some capitalism fan, who thinks socialism is evil, and that constructon company CEOs are workers, but underpaid office workers are "elites".

Rarely you get a very well read one, who understands their stuff, or the old Soviet bloc ex-communist, who switched because the local far-right party started to be very concerned about "work morals", and also think the construction company CEO is a worker and "against the elite".

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