Congratulations, you’re an agnostic
this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2024
-1 points (33.3% liked)
Atheism
4650 readers
1 users here now
Community Guide
Archive Today will help you look at paywalled content the way search engines see it.
Statement of Purpose
- This is a support and conversation community for people who don't believe in gods.
- Superstition hucksters have no reason to subscribe or post here at all.
- If you are looking to debate or proselytize, options will be linked lower in the sidebar.
Acceptable
- Honest questions or conversations.
- Discussions on parenting or advice.
- Struggles, frustrations, coming out.
- Atheist memes. We can have fun!
- News headlines relevant to atheism.
Unacceptable
Depending on severity, you might be warned before adverse action is taken.
- Anything against site rules.
- Illegal and/or NSFW material.
- Troll posts and comments. There will be no attempt to explain what that means.
- Leading questions, agenda pushing, or disingenuous attempts to bait members.
- Personal attacks or flaming.
Inadvisable
- Self promotion or upvote farming.
- Excessive shitposting or off-topic discussion.
Application of warnings or bans will be subject to moderator discretion. Feel free to appeal. If changes to the guidelines are necessary, they will be adjusted.
If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
Likewise, if you are a member, sympathizer or a resemblant of a group that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of any other group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you you will be banned on sight.
Provable means able to provide proof to the moderation, and, if necessary, to the community.
~ /c/nostupidquestions
If you want your space listed in this sidebar and it is especially relevant to the atheist or skeptic communities, PM DancingPickle and we'll have a look!
Connect with Atheists
- Matrix: #atheism:envs.net
Help and Support Links
- Freedom From Religion Foundation
- The Secular Therapy Project
- Secular Students Alliance
- Black Nonbelievers
- The Clergy Project
- Atheist Alliance International
- Sunday Assembly
- Atheist Ireland
- Atheism UK
- Atheists United
Streaming Media
This is mostly YouTube at the moment. Podcasts and similar media - especially on federated platforms - may also feature here.
- Atheist Debates - Matt Dillahunty
- Rationality Rules
- Friendly Atheist
- Making Sense with Sam Harris
- Cosmic Skeptic
- Genetically Modified Skeptic
- Street Epistemology
- Armored Skeptic
- NonStampCollector
Orgs, Blogs, Zines
- Center for Inquiry
- American Atheists
- Humanists International
- Atheist Republic
- The Brights
- The Angry Atheist
- History for Atheists
- Rationalist International
- Atheist Revolution
- Debunking Christianity
- Godless Mom
- Atheist Freethinkers
Mainstream
Bibliography
Start here...
...proceed here.
- God is Not Great (Hitchens)
- The God Delusion (Dawkins)
- The End of Faith (Harris)
- Why I Am Not a Christian (Russell)
- Letter to a Christian Nation (Harris)
Proselytize Religion
From Reddit
As a community with an interest in providing the best resources to its members, the following wiki links are provided as historical reference until we can establish our own.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
The concept of "god" implies not being bound by physical laws. So science simply doesn't apply here. We can never scientifically prove or disprove god's existence, because if we could, then whatever we proved or disproved wouldn't fit our concept of "god" anymore. It would just be another natural phenomenon that can be studied.
But our world functions very well without a god. If one does exist, it doesn't seem to affect anything meaningfully and noticeably. So is it really a god if you can just ignore it with no ill effects?
And without any real proof of its existence, it becomes equivalent with any other explanation that may or may not be true and can never be proven, like the flying spaghetti monster or the invisible pink unicorn. It becomes meaningless and useless, so it can be discarded as untrue.
load more comments
(9 replies)
My issue with atheism is that I think it establishes the lack of a God or gods as the truth.
Atheism is not about truth, it is about belief. Atheists do not believe there are gods.
If an atheist says that it is an absolute truth that there are no gods, they are an atheist, but also a gnostic. Gnostics claim to know essentially unknowable things as truths.
load more comments
(27 replies)
First of all, I have more in common with atheists than religious people, so my intention isn't to come here and attack, I just want to hear your opinions.
Welcome. Happy to talk with people rather than have to counter rhetorical attacks.
My issue with atheism is that I think it establishes the lack of a God or gods as the truth.
Personally, I'm partial to the definition of Atheism as 'Lack of belief in any gods' rather than 'Belief that there are no gods.' I fit both definitions but I think the first is more accurate and better represents most Atheist's relationship with the truth value of the claim. Even for those of us who believe there are no gods I believe it's a grand commonality between a super-majority of atheists that there's some quantity of sufficient evidence that would change our minds... though quite likely the specific amount will vary from one to another.
But saying that there's no god with certainty is something I'm just not comfortable with. Science has taught us that being wrong is part of the process of progress.
The way I see it most of the time scientific advancement doesn't say our previous understanding was wrong, rather that it was incomplete. One of the better examples being Newtonian Physics and Relativity, Newton wasn't wrong so much as his work didn't account for special behavior under extreme circumstances. We do occasionally have counter examples such as miasma being replaced with the Germ Theory of Disease but this tends to be when a historical unscientific position is unraveled by a scientific explanation.
As-is I don't see how any such gods that have been commonly claimed could exist as stated without them violating various scientific, and in some cases logical, laws. So, I feel quite secure in my position that these things that contradict our best evidenced understanding of the universe are not real.
I feel like being open to the possibilities is a healthier mindset, as we barely understand reality.
Sure, it's worthwhile to look at the evidence against our own positions. But evidence is the key word here. The theistic position has yet to forward any noteworthy body of anything that would fit the definition of the word. They're welcome to keep trying in perpetuity if they so wish but I'm not going to lend credence to the claim until such time as they are not only successful in finding something that is evidence but a sufficient body of it to outweigh what the claim is mutually exclusive with which already has evidence or they can by some means discredit the whole body of evidence against their claim and forward evidence for it.
That being said so long as there is measurable harm to come from theistic belief and the benefits of it are ephemeral I will be opposed to inflicting it on others.
I usually don't believe there is a god when the argument comes from religious people, because they have no evidence, but they could be right by chance.
I don't believe that that's the case. To be no amount of assertion creates a chance that anything could be the case. What makes a chance is that an assessment of possibilities puts a known or estimable probability on it being the case.
If most atheists identify with "lack of belief" and not "believe God doesn't exist" then I don't have much else to say because I think that pretty much describes myself. I just don't have a belief, I don't support or reject.
I feel that even if evidence is not given, we can't rule something as false. Let's assume the idea of God wasn't impossible to deny or prove. Do you think lack of evidence provided by humans, little animals who live in a dust spec for a relative short amount of time, gives you enough confidence to say "there is no creator"?
That is exactly my issue with atheism, that they think their human reason gives them enough capacity to take a position to something as complex as the origin of reality. It feels to me like an ant taking a position on quantum mechanics. It's just outside of our reach. Anything we choose to believe, even if rooted in reason, is a wild guess.
The most rational thing to do is just to stop guessing. I feel if people accepted their ignorance more frequently instead of taking sides without actual knowledge, the world would be a better place.
Do you think lack of evidence provided by humans, little animals who live in a dust spec for a relative short amount of time, gives you enough confidence to say "there is no creator"?
For some generalized creator figure? I can't disprove that, however I think Russel's Teapot comes into play at this point. We couldn't detect a porcelain teapot the size of a common teapot in stellar orbit between the Earth and Mars. So, currently, it would be impossible to disprove that claim, however there is also no reason to accept it. The burden of proof is on those who make these claims to support them, not on those who don't accept them to disprove every claim they could posit.
For any of the creator figures I'm aware of non-deist theists claiming exist? At least of all those that I am familiar with they have self-contradictory stated natures, operate in logical contradictions, and perform impossibilities. In short: They don't exist because for that not to be the case then the few things we can demonstrate to be true must be false.
That is exactly my issue with atheism, that they think their human reason gives them enough capacity to take a position to something as complex as the origin of reality.
The only times I've seen an atheist back their atheism just with human reason is when explaining logical contradictions about the asserted god. Most arguments I'm aware of use more than just logical contradictions in the opposing claim. More often than not I see them engaging with the proposed evidence for the claim and providing contrary evidence against it.
It's just outside of our reach and anything we choose to believe, even if rooted in reason, is a wild guess.
We use the terms 'rooted in reason' and 'wild guess' to mean different things. To me a wild guess is made in the absence of reason or without regard to it while something that is 'rooted in reason' is about as opposed to that as is possible, a belief that stems only from what it well supported by evidence, reasoning, or most preferably both.
I'm not sure I take your meaning for 'just outside our reach'. Are you stating that we're close to it but not there yet or that it is categorically beyond our ability to reach such that we will never reach it?
The most rational thing to do is just to stop guessing. I feel if people accepted their ignorance more frequently instead of taking sides without actual knowledge, the world would be a better place.
I'm sorry but this comes off as somewhat disingenuous directed toward atheists. We're not accepting the other side's guess and generally also provide reasoning for that decision when prompted. Contrast with the theistic position of the assertion of some grand causer or creator and subsequent assertions that anything not yet explained rationally is somehow the work of this unsupported asserted entity.
Something rooted in reason can be a wild guess when the reasoning isn't mature enough to handle the subject. This is a subject that is out of our reach.
As you already pointed out, not all atheists think "God doesn't exist". My last paragraph was aimed towards religious people and atheists that have a solid opinion. I don't think accepting ignorance is something bad, I advice to do it whenever possible.
Saying "I don't know" or "you don't know" is much better IMO. In reality we don't know and can't know.
Something rooted in reason can be a wild guess when the reasoning isn’t mature enough to handle the subject.
Example, please. I would say when you start wildly guessing, it ceases to be reason. Speculation based on available evidence might involve reason, but a wild guess is, as far as I can tell, as lacking reason as possible.
This topic is the example. Just because you're using your rational thought doesn't mean you're getting anywhere near an actual answer or having a better chance of answering "is there a creator"?
You can use all the reason you want, you just don't understand reality with such depth that you can start scratching that question.
Schrodinger was using reason when he proposed his paradox... But he was wrong because he lacked knowledge. Without actual knowledge, logical thought can make sense but still be wrong. Reality is more complex than the conceptual abstractions our minds use.
I don't have to make any wild guesses to say that I don't believe there are any gods due to a lack of empirical evidence.
But then you're still, and I think intentionally now, trying to claim that knowledge and belief are the same thing. They are not, and atheism is still about belief and not knowledge.
I realize you don't like that, but that's still what atheism means. A lack of belief. Guesses aren't needed to lack belief in something. I don't have to guess to not believe in werpreopwerwqop because there is no reason for me to believe it exists.
I don't know why you keep saying I'm saying belief and knowledge are the same. They are not the same. My point is that belief without knowledge is pointless. See? Not the same.
Belief based on knowledge = good.
Belief without knowledge = not good.
Do I have knowledge about the creation of the universe? Do I understand reality? Do I know anything about a creator? No. Thus, I choose not to believe anything about it. Anything I choose to believe without actual understanding is just a guess.
Because you keep saying that. You said "I don't know" is a step between belief and non-belief. No it isn't. Because it's a lack of knowledge, which is not belief.
You also think lacking belief in gods is about knowledge. It isn't. Therefore, atheism isn't. So stop talking about knowledge as it relates to atheism because it does not.
Russell’s Teapot.
Yeah, Schrodinger's was also a logical paradox that contradicted superposition. Too bad reality is more complex than human logic. "well I've never seen a cat being dead and alive at the same time, I guess superposition is just false because there's no evidence".
The fact you're pointing Russell's Teapot shows exactly what I mean with this post. You're using a simple logical thought experiment to derive a most likely conclusion about the nature of the universe, when in reality you have basically null knowledge of what is actually going on with reality. This is exactly my disagreement with atheism.
But reality isn't more complex than human logic... There are solid mathematical proofs that superposition is valid. Superposition is also falsifiable.
Yes, we discovered that AFTER the thought experiment. That was possible through knowledge and experimentation. Two things we don't have about the origin of the universe... We have a lot of theories though.
You should know that theories like superposition are articulated after they find math implying the behaviour.
OK, so if maths were so clear about it, why very smart people who think logically didn't think it was the case?
Could it be because maths have said many times in the past "Hey, this could be possible"... Only to find out that, yes, it is possible in maths but not in reality.
https://youtu.be/6akmv1bsz1M?feature=shared
And yeah, we don't have the tools right now to fully unrestand the origin of the universe, so we can't know how to make falsifiable theories around it. For example, Dark Matter is non-falsifiable because we don't have enough knowledge about it.
We observe certain behavior in the universe, we call the cause Dark Matter even if we don't fully understand how to prove or disprove it. We observe the existence of reality and we assume there is a creator even if we don't fully understand how to prove or disprove it. We can observe reality, thus, theorizing about the existence of a creator isn't absurd.
Dark matter is theoretically falsifiable. The god concept is not.
If it is falsifiable or not depends on how you define it.
It could be defined in many falsifiable ways, give it a try, pretty sure you can find many.
My point about Dark Matter is that it isn't something we will likely have the means to falsify soon given the nature of the problem. It is also a pretty weak theory that contradicts many of the facts that we already know about the universe. So I could also create a very weak falsifiable argument about the existence of a creator and then call it a day.
"The creator was physically present in the origin of spacetime". In theory, if we could look back in time, we could verify this. There are plenty techniques that allow us to "look" back, we may just need to discover a better one.
"God is physical and exists in the universe"
Making something falsifiable isn't a problem.
You're saying the concept of a god used by traditional religions isn't falsifiable, which is right. But there's no reason to limit the idea of a god to those traditional definitions.
view more: next ›