How about enabling young couples to actually afford raising children?
this post was submitted on 26 May 2024
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Corporations are going to want the cheapest possible solution, so immigration is far more likely.
Exactly this. When a family could buy a house and raise a whole bunch of kids on one minimum wage income, you had a baby boom. Now wages have stagnated where you can barely make it as a childless couple on two wages, why the hell would you have kids in that environment? They spent 50 years chipping away at any kind of social program that helps people, and now they're complaining that the capitalist eternal growth Ponzi scheme could collapse.
Indeed. I think providing assistance to parents would be the best solution.
Yea no of course they aren't going to do this, they are going to do the most blunt pigheaded way to solve the problem (for the time being)
I think asking why population needs to continue to rise?
We got a huge percentage of humans who are struggling. Many under educated. We got slavery. We got wars. We got food issues. We literally were just in a worldwide pandemic.
How about fixing that before we fix "the population" problem?
yes
We got a huge percentage of humans who are struggling. Many under educated. We got slavery. We got wars. We got food issues.
I'm not convinced that these problems would be addressed by a smaller population. On average, people today are better educated, more peaceful, and better nourished than they were 100 or 500 years ago. I think this is mainly due to technological progress rather than population size.
I think asking why population needs to continue to rise?
I don't think the population needs to rise, but there will definitely be problems if the population shrinks rapidly over just a few generations, one of the main ones being "who will take care of all the old people?". Japan and Korea are already struggling with this, and other countries are not far behind.
I’m not convinced that these problems would be addressed by a smaller population. On average, people today are better educated, more peaceful, and better nourished than they were 100 or 500 years ago. I think this is mainly due to technological progress rather than population size.
I didn't read it as saying smaller populations would fix this necessarily, but that we should focus on fixing those problems before we worry too much about falling birth rates outside of countries like Japan and Korea that have such elderly populations. Even if letting the population drop doesn't directly cause the prevalence of these problems to drop as well, I think trying to force the matter of growing the population before addressing these problems would likely only aggravate them. We can't necessarily count on technological progress to keep up with infinite population grow, so we'll continue to outpace our ability to find adequate solutions with our ability to generate massive problems for ourselves.
I think trying to force the matter of growing the population before addressing these problems would likely only aggravate them.
An excellent point.
Most economies are rooted in growth based policies. As if there is an unlimited amount of everything for everyone.
And we see this because it is a system that brutally punishes you if you aren't able to have things
(Massive oversimplification)
Tax the rich.
Issues I see
Having two kids in daycare, costs more than the average mortgage around here.
A lot of healthcare premiums double for adding a family.
Taking a bus out riding your bike to pick up your kids doesn't work for most.
People that plan are going to come to the conclusion there is no good time to have kids.
Fix global warming. Fix political polarization, bigotry, hate, etc. The economy isn’t the only reason this generation is holding back from bringing children into the picture.
Any way, maybe a smaller population on our limited resource rock ain’t too bad an idea?
Political polarization?
Polarization isn’t a problem, fascism is. Authoritarianism is. Oppression is. That’s a one-sided issue. Nobody wants to live under someone else’s boot-heels, being told whether or not they are allowed to enjoy fundamental human rights and liberties.
When we start aggressively crushing right wing ideals and ringleaders, THEN - and only then - will civilization have the opportunity to heal.
I think what they're saying, and what I agree with, is polarization leads to extremists. Our society is full of stupid people, and catering to the lowest common denominator means painting your opposition as a caricature and yourself to be the polar opposite of them.
Fascism and authoritarianism are extremes. If we have a less polarized political environment then there is room for subtlety, nuance, and understanding.
Fascism and authoritarianism are the same extreme… and they are on the rise globally in a big way. So what do you think are (1) the opposite “extreme” and (2) a “less extreme” approach to answering to such extremism?
I think a better example than the Git one I gave is the whole idea that anyone anti-Trump needs to vote blue no matter who. I was a huge supporter of Sanders, but I do not want to support Clinton. The entire vote blue no matter who thing really exemplifies exactly what we're talking about here: it doesn't matter if you dislike Clinton or Biden - you need to vote for them because they aren't Trump.
Your actual opinion doesn't matter. You need to vote for the candidate your party picks. Seems pretty authoritarian to me.
To build on my response to your last comment: you walked right into the answer but didn’t see it.
America has two right wing parties.
The first step toward a solution is RCV, which shifts power left… back to the people. But look at the states proactively banning RCV, because they know it removes corrupt, undemocratic power from their own leaders. And what are Democrats doing to fight this? Nothing. Because stealing choice from the American people serves them, too.
Again, liberals are all about lip service. Pretend to be progressive only insofar as certain policies can be abused for personal gain.
There is no leftist party in the US.
Maybe we're talking past each other here. We aren't saying there is an opposite of authoritarianism which is extremist. We're saying opposites like liberal vs conservative can be polarized to extremes, and the result of both is authoritarianism.
For example, a lot of Republicans try to ban books on homosexuality, trans people, etc. from libraries / public schools. There are also a lot of Republicans who seem support some racist political policies.
That leads to extremist views from the other side as well. For example, some software development companies ban the use of the word "master" for the main Git branch. This was the standard name since the beginning of time for Git, and was used in the context of it being the source of truth, like "master's degree" or "master blacksmith". It has absolutely nothing to do with a master / slave relationship, and isn't racist in any way. Yet a LOT of people argue that it doesn't matter - if someone feels uncomfortable about the word being used, we shouldn't use it.
I think that's a form of authoritarianism as well. Both examples are uneducated people who dislike something wanting to see it banned for everyone due to their own ignorance. It doesn't matter that the second example is trying to be socially/ racially conscious. They're wrong, uneducated, and trying to impose their own beliefs on others due to ignorance.
The less extreme approach to educate people more, and for people to calm down, have open, constructive discussions. Trying to understand the person you perceive as an enemy can be very rewarding for both parties and for society in general.
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Create better pathways for legal immigration and make life in modern society less dystopic so that people actually want and can financially afford to reproduce.
But who would be villified in thier place???
When population declines enough, population will go back up.
Population decline isn't a bad thing. The Black Plague, WW1, WW2. All were more severe population declines and the result was improved lives for everyone.
the result was improved lives for everyone
*for everyone who survived.
I'd argue that the lives of those who died from wars and plagues got much worse, particularly due to the whole "dying" part.
But not having babies isn't killing anyone. It's the best type of population decline. It's also slower than war/plague so it's an easier transition.
It’s also slower than war/plague so it’s an easier transition.
It is easier, but not without challenges. Each person (on average) caring for four elderly grandparents could be quite the burden.
Let population go down.
Remove low density housing downtown and built higher density. Have a land value tax. Prices will drop.
Actually educate and train the local workforce. Only allow immigration when it meets certain requirements or from very close countries. E.g. you have a business with 10 engineers with 5 years of experience. Prove you have tried to hire 10 engineers with 0 years of experience and none have been made redundant in the last 5 years. If there is a country wide shortage of those engineers with 5 years of experience then you can hire foreigners. Have lower business taxes in places with high unemployment. Public works for things like high speed rail and cycle paths.
Have free child care and free things for teenagers to do.
Taxes would go up but so would employment and discretionary income. Crime would drop.
Would be a win, win, win.
All it would require it telling members of the aristocracy, land owning MPs, and rich baby boomers all to fuck off.
Edit: also cheap renewable energy, robotics and precision fermentation is going to destroy the labour market anyway. So that's going to be a whole thing we need to deal with.
I nominate this guy for president.
This question ends with that a country shouldn't compete with other countries but provide a good living environment for it's citizens.
End capitalism, Degrowth
regulation to make poisoning the populace immensely punishable, and make living affordable
Guulotines for the oligarchy.
Developed countries should make a family affordable.
As additional support, make it easy for cities to organize events where people can meet. Maybe love hotels and mixers like in Japan would be good too.
Some people see global population increase as a cause for concern. Some, often the same people consider national population decline a problem. Is it really that difficult to arrive at a conclusion under these circumstances?
Yes it is, because the conclusion requires you to not be xenophobic.
You‘re right. But then we got to direct this hate towards the rich!
Government mandated big tiddy goth gf /jk
On a serious note, we as a society needs to setup our priorities in the right places. Most people around me are struggling to pay for their living expenses, even after getting higher education degrees, they are struggling to get jobs. How can people think about having children when the society is built around extreme capitalism? (Get as much money from consumers as they can pay)
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